from Showing to Working?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pwca
    The other hard thing about actual working dogs, as I see it, is that no handler of narcotics or police dogs is going to be able to give up his dog every weekend to show- and it ttakes a LONG time to title a GSD, compared to say, a Cardi or an Eskie.  

     The situation with GSDs is actually unique in that manner. The breed was developed by one man Max Von Stephanitz and he began developing the breed in 1889. A main concern of Von Stephanitz was that his breed remain always, first and foremost a working dog. Realizing that not all dogs would be able to be work in real life jobs, he developed a test to determine that the dogs being bred had working temperaments true to the breed - this test was Schutzhund :) So Schutzhund, more than being just another dog sport was craeted to ensure that GSDs being considered for breeding had the traits they needed to produce dogs with working temperaments. Scutzhund is still around today and still being used for that purpose. German working line dogs are also conformation titled, by GSD breeder/judges with written critiques. In these conformation shows the dogs are not judged against each other for ratings but against the standard - there could be several dogs in any class that get the highest rating or there could be none who do. Once they are rated the dogs are placed against each other. They have to have this conformation rating for their puppies to be able to be registered with the SV (original parent club).

     I also want to add that if training/titling dogs in other things was important to more Amline GSD breeders, they would find a way to do it. In fact the dogs would likely be able to be titled before ever finishing, since it is such a competitive ring and takes quite some time to finish a dog. The sire of one of my Belgians was heavily specialed for years - #1 dog in the country year after year, BOB at Westminister, Select at Nationals (eventually was BISS), all breed group winning dog and during that time he got a CDX and advanced herding titles as well. My male's grandmother was BISS at the National twice and one year was also won the Versatility award at the same National. If the dogs are as trainable as they are supposed to be, there should be no reason that someone can train for and even title in "other stuff" while showing their dog in the breed ring. IME the interest just isn't there. And that is ok, it is their choice what they want to do with their dogs and breeding programs. But if that is the case it is a bit much to claim to be "where show dogs work and working dogs show" when their show dogs have done little more than HICs beyond conformation showing.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I know. :P I'm not talking about generalities though- I'm talking about Xeph's specific goal- to have dogs that can do the work and succeed in the American show system + Liesje's 'actual work' comment.

    I think it's an insanely difficult goal, but I do think it's a worthy one. I think the problem is that breeders must choose, really, one or the other, unless they've got a lot of staff, a couple partners, and/or an unlimited budget. :P There's always going to be tradeoffs. The trick would (will) be balancing them.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Pwca

    I think it's an insanely difficult goal, but I do think it's a worthy one. I think the problem is that breeders must choose, really, one or the other, unless they've got a lot of staff, a couple partners, and/or an unlimited budget. :P There's always going to be tradeoffs. The trick would (will) be balancing them.

     

    I agree, and honestly, it doesn't seem to bother me as much as it bothers some people.  There are LOTS of working line GSDs, lines among lines and yadda yadda...plenty to choose from.  I'm not all that bothered by Am line show GSDs.  There's great variety in the breed with regard to color, structure, temperament, drives, etc...a little something for everyone.  People aren't bottomless pits of money.  Some people are super active in SchH, competing all over the USA and the world, while others are showing their dogs every week in AKC conformation.  I don't think one is inherently better than the other.  There is one that *I* prefer to spend my time and money on, but that's just me. 

    What I like about Xeph's goal is that she will be breeding what SHE wants and what SHE likes.  Too many breeders just breed whatever is the fad or whatever sells puppies.  They have no regard for the dogs and never actually research what it is that THEY want, what characteristics they are trying to express or preserve with their own lines. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    What I like about Xeph's goal is that she will be breeding what SHE wants and what SHE likes.  Too many breeders just breed whatever is the fad or whatever sells puppies.  They have no regard for the dogs and never actually research what it is that THEY want, what characteristics they are trying to express or preserve with their own lines. 

     I certainly hope she has success in her goal and creates Amline GSDs that can really work - I'd love to see that! Many people have tried for such things but I haven't seen any have a great dela of success with it long term. What makes it hard is that when you are breeding for the show ring, you can't keep the puppy with the best working temperament in the litter - you have to keep the one who has the type of structure that will win. You have to make breeding choices, not based on the best match to improve your dog's working ability but what will produce conformation quality dogs. If that wasn't the case, you could just get working line GSDs and be done with it ;)

     Like I said there is nothing wrong with breeding Amline GSDs if that is your thing but it is misleading to imply they can work just like working bred dogs or have the same abilities but their breeders don't have the time to work them. Having been active in Amline GSDs for a time, I can say that isn't the case in the majority of breeders who have them. They are bred by and for people who want show GSDs and their temperaments, in general are not working GSD temperaments.

     That isn't to say they all have bad temperaments either - they just don't have the same drive, work ethic and biddablity because it isn't required for their "job" which is the conformation ring. My Amline bitch is 10 years old, in good health and has a good temperament. She was too moderate to be competive in the ring in my area but she got some nice placements and made a nice 4H showmanship dog for me. I always toy with bringing her out for Vet classes at Specialties, because she is in such good condition for her age. All that said, while her temperament is "good" - she is pretty friendly, easy to live with and overall a nice dog, she does not have a good balance of drives and lacks work ethic. She can be a bit "weird" which comes from a lack of confidence in some sitautions. Her temperament is a bit more like a Sibe than a GSD LOL. My male was her half brother and he had good drive, good work ethic, good biddability but was very nervey to the point of being fear aggressive in some situations. He also was a speciality style dog and while he could jump, it was harder than it should be for him. He obviously lacked the sped and agility of more moderate dogs. My German Showline girl, also ten years old has outstanding work ethic, balanced drive, outstanding biddability and is overall a very sound dog. My next GSD will be from a working line breeder friend of mine. After knowing her dogs, it is clear to me that they are what GSDs were always intended to be :)

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sera_J
      And as for checking structure, that's the point of showing.  There will always be bad judges, or mistakes made.  But as a general rule of thumb what is conformation if not looking at structure, temperament, etc against the breed standard?  

      I'm not talking about bad judges or mistakes but the conformation showing game in general. If conformation shows were all about checking structure, AKC CH GSDs would look like the dog in the GSDCA's illustrated standard. Here is the illustrated standard: http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm

    Here are some recent GSDCA National Winners:

    http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/wdogs/WeloveDuChienArmyOfOne.htm

    http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/tdogs/TrafalgarPremiumBlend.htm

    http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/cbitches/CastlehillTuffCookie.htm

     I am not saying anything bad about these dogs or their wins but they certainly don't look like the dog in the illustrated AKC standard, which is supposedly what they are being judged against. The illustrated standard is intended to be a picture of an ideal GSD according to the standard.

    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD

    Sera_J
      And as for checking structure, that's the point of showing.  There will always be bad judges, or mistakes made.  But as a general rule of thumb what is conformation if not looking at structure, temperament, etc against the breed standard?  

      I'm not talking about bad judges or mistakes but the conformation showing game in general. If conformation shows were all about checking structure, AKC CH GSDs would look like the dog in the GSDCA's illustrated standard. Here is the illustrated standard: http://www.gsdca.org/Noframes/standard/IllStan1.htm

    Here are some recent GSDCA National Winners:

    http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/wdogs/WeloveDuChienArmyOfOne.htm

    http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/tdogs/TrafalgarPremiumBlend.htm

    http://www.gsdca.org/GSDReviewed/cbitches/CastlehillTuffCookie.htm

     I am not saying anything bad about these dogs or their wins but they certainly don't look like the dog in the illustrated AKC standard, which is supposedly what they are being judged against. The illustrated standard is intended to be a picture of an ideal GSD according to the standard.

     

    This is exactly what I meant when I said, "I'd prefer that the judges would just stick with the conformation that the GSDs SHOULD have, and then there would be the possibility for dogs that can win in both." 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Not just being training and titled...but excelling.

    I think this is one of the biggest problems with GSDs though.  GSDs are being bred to excel at schutzhund, or excel in the showring, or excel on an agility field.

    The GSD is supposed to be jack of all trades, master of none.  

    And as for my breeding goals, is it somewhat breeding for what I want?  Yes.  But it is MORE about breeding for what the standard calls for!

    My dogs should be able to perform in both venues and do it well.

    Do the Samuri dogs have only some elementary titles?  Yes.  But they have them, and THAT'S where you start because they are showing that they have the drive to do something!

    Look up the kennel Falkrigia, and see the titles they have on their dogs....that's a line I'm also interested in.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Xeph

    Not just being training and titled...but excelling.

    I think this is one of the biggest problems with GSDs though.  GSDs are being bred to excel at schutzhund, or excel in the showring, or excel on an agility field.

    The GSD is supposed to be jack of all trades, master of none.  Look up the kennel Falkrigia, and see the titles they have on their dogs....that's a line I'm also interested in.
     

     

     GSDs are supposed to excel in SchH though, it was created for the breeder by the breeder founder to test their abilities :) Really the drive and character that is needed for SchH is what is needed for a GSD to be a jack of all trades, as that same drive/character is what makes them good police dogs, narc dogs, SAR dogs, agility dogs, flyball dogs and service dogs.

    Thanks for that link - never heard of the breeder and LOVE that they seem to do stuff with all of their dogs. Their dogs seem to be well built too, all around nice and I see why you'd be looking at them for your goals :)

    • Gold Top Dog

    A couple of years ago, there was a video passed around of the GSD "Dallas" (Ch. Kismet's Sight For Sore Eyes) herding.  If I remember right, he was training for his herding title. 

     

    Here's a video of the Labrador "Buzz" (Ch Aquarius Centercourt Delight) training for his working certificate. 

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=CP_oujk2ETc

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Sad

    DumDog

    i always found it sad how many dogs in the working group are just a shadow of their original stock... and few people, it seems, work AND show their dogs.. and dont even consider their breed's working ability.

    now... its easy to turn a working breed into show dog material*, but what about the other way around? turning a show dog back into a worker and doing their original jobs on the farm or field? i wonder if that would be a huge undertaking and not worth the effort or if it would be just as easy as breeding for conformation?

    i dont know if that made any sense............ basically the hunters i know laugh at the prancing KC pointers, retrievers, and whippets and wouldnt ever trust one to bring home dinner. in their minds its a joke to even consider that. for example.. the working Bedlington is a different breed from the show Bedlington in their minds.


         FWIW, this is my take on the situation. Once you breed away from working traits, re gaining them is easier said than done, however, still possible. If a show breeder was determined to sharpen or rekindle their breed's natural abilities, they would have to sacrifice some of the "flashy" traits that make their line of show dogs consistantly excel in the ring ... honestly, most are not willing to make the sacrifices. There can be no perfection within a breed, there has to be acceptance of certain undesireable traits, taking one which is lesser than another. Therefore, to restore working ability they will have to start unwraveling what they have woven and weave a new pattern.

         Over the weekend, I happened to catch some dog sport program on TV. Was primarily lure coursing but showed some clippets of Schutzhund as well. Now, I do admire those breeders for admitting that conformation isn't the be all & end all and making some attempt to bring working ability back into the picture. That being said, the entire show, from my point of view was a joke! If we have to make such contrivances as lures and play biting sessions for our dogs, than we are ENTIRELY off the mark as to what comprises a working dog! The Schutzhund was a game to most of these dogs, and the lure coursing of the whippets/greyhounds was actually sad to watch. These dogs were chasing out of fun/prey drive and had no instinct left. When did you ever see a game bred dog (or ANY dog for that matter) not shake a toy or animal they'd been chasing? These dighthounds did not shake the lure when they "caught" it at the end of the race. Pathetic.  

         Now, if you take Beagles for example - there are certain show lines who have had their hunting ability/heart bred out. OTOH, it's prepotent in other lines. I have a show champion bitch who finished quite quickly - she was a CH. in 5 shows with 17 points & four 4pt majors. Damned if this bitch isn't one helluva game bred hound!!! She hates critters of all varieties! I bought her to help with the conformation faults in my line, however, when I started running her with my hounds for the exercize (she was so out of shape), I noticed she was quite interested in the chase and finding the rabbit. She is quite scent oriented but does lack some heart, the line control is barely there & she is very tight mouthed ... altho some darling had her debarked so this could be a combination of genetics & the inability to bark correctly. She is much better than what I ever expected a show dog to be, I had to admit I was dead wrong about the instinct being bred out of show lines altogether. However, if I had produced her from my field lines, she would probably be a cull. I plan to breed her to my best male later on this year and will be keeping the pup who has better field ability than conformation. Now, to answer your original question, I dount I'd be able to turn her (or 99% of show Beagles) into a field champion or true gun dawg. If I let her in the field for soem pleasure hunting or for meat, I'd be sorely dissapointed Sad  The truth of the matter is, that while I try to breed with the dual purpose hound in mind, there will never be a Westminster winner who can really give a bunny a run for it's money. Form does NOT follow function, IMHO. Function follows selective breeding & form is a by product. Case in point is that my champion bitch has outstanding movement when trotted along at a showring pace. I know that too short a back will usually hinder rear movemen, make it seem clumsy, however despite having what would eb considered a well assembled front, Bailey's movement in the field is an absloute mess! SHe is clumsy, taking twice the effort to cover as much ground as my ugly ol' field bred hounds. My bitch who lacks chest, and because of that has poor front movement from the show point of view can really FLY. Literally. Just shoot out like a rocket and doesn't swing (which the show dawg sometimes does), just follows that line and hates the critters with a passion. She can litterally cover 50+ feet with a few well placed leaps. Athletic to a T, but would be kicked out of the show ring. 

         So, my very long winded point is that you can breed good conformation dogs that will win shows and still have working ability, but when push comes to shove, you MUST choose which is more important. You can't have them both, at the same degree of quality.

    • Gold Top Dog

    HoundMusic

         Over the weekend, I happened to catch some dog sport program on TV. Was primarily lure coursing but showed some clippets of Schutzhund as well. Now, I do admire those breeders for admitting that conformation isn't the be all & end all and making some attempt to bring working ability back into the picture. That being said, the entire show, from my point of view was a joke! If we have to make such contrivances as lures and play biting sessions for our dogs, than we are ENTIRELY off the mark as to what comprises a working dog! 

      Actually SchH was created by the man who developed the GSD breed, as a temperament test for breeding. He did this so that any breeding GSD's temperament and character would be tested, even if they themselves were not working GSDs. It is still a requirement for that both parents be SchH titled (and conformatiuon rated and hip certified) before puppies can be fully registered with SV. I know some dogs who are very serious with SchH and dogs whoa re only playing, don't tend to hold up to get higher titles or scores. I also have known sighthounds who were totally serious about coursing. It is hard, in modern times to breed for working ability because there are so many fewer ways to test for it. Only a handful of dogs from most breeds will ever be real working dogs (there are exceptions of course such as BCs), so in favor of genetic diveristy and availablity, breeders need to have tools to choose working traits in dogs who aren't actually working. Does that make sense? The people I know who breed working GSDs and test them through SchH, sell dogs that grow up to be outstanding real working dogs - so they must be doing something right!

     That said, just because a dog is a working dog with a "real job" doesn't mean he's good at it LOL I'd take a nice Schutzhund dog to protect me over this K9 any day: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gQpu9UoXCeM I have seen other video footage where a suspect hit a K9 and the dog ran away, leaving his handler there with an armed man! The handler and the suspect got into a fight and the dog would appear on screen here and there, barking and nipping at the suspect before running away. Kind of sad to watch really.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Many dogs do only play at Schutzhund.  To Rafe it really is only a game, but I believe he will make a SchH 3 title.  I don't, however, think that he would protect me from someone unless they had a sleeve on.  lol!  That's not why I do schutzhund with him, though.  With Rafe, its more of a learning experience for me (for when I do get a dog that is not just play oriented), and a fun play/exercise time for him.  There have been labs with SchH 3 titles, and I'm almost 100% sure that they were "playing" at schutzhund, too.

     I've also seen dogs that are WAY too sharp.  My trainer has a dog like this, and she really can't be trusted.  She would give her life for my trainer and her son, though, but her perception of threats are different from ours.  My trainer was on a walk once with her son in a stroller and this particular dog, and she left the dog on a down stay by the stroller, off the sidewalk by the post office.  She was just going a few feet away to put some letters in the bins.  A woman jogging down the sidewalk got too close to the baby for the dog's comfort and bit the woman before my trainer could do anything.  She said that she saw what was going to happen, but didn't have time to react.  Big lawsuit there, of course.  But, really, the dog was just doing its job, its just that our society doesn't accept that at all (not saying it should, necessarily, but I do think that we should be more considerate about things).

    The ideal dog is a dog that has more prey drive, but still has defense drive.  These are the kinds of dogs that you can trust with your life, but won't bite too hurridly, either.  The point is, they can do the work.  To be honest, as far as K9's go, many dogs that cannot go on in schutzhund are trained to be K9's.  In schutzhund dogs have to out at once and be very precise and under control.  This isn't really required as far as K9's go.  That's why some K9's aren't that great at their job.  Not saying this about all of them, of course, but for some it is true.  Mostly the police departments just don't know what to look for or how to go about getting a dog, and when a cheaper option comes up, they jump for it!

     I think that many dogs can get titles in SchH if they have a good enough trainer, but some dogs just can't.  A guy I train with wanted to train his American bred GSD for Schutzhund, but the dog is way too shy.  He would be a fear biter if it came down to it.  I highly doubt any trainer could get this dog to title in anything but a BH. 

     The point is that, yes, there are plenty of dogs that do schutzhund and just play at it, but those of us that train in schutzhund know the dogs that just have prey drive and those that also have defense drive.  And, hopefully, if we're looking to breed working dogs, we wouldn't use that stock to breed. 

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     

    I plan on having and breeding for it all.

    This is something we hear about in modern "versatility" BC breeders now all the time.  It has been the catch phrase since the BC was dragged into the AKC.

    This battle cry has been fading away now, after ten years of experimentation.  You hear much less of "doing it all" these days and specialization is creating subdivisions in the BC breed faster than probably any breed has ever experienced in the US. 

    Why is this?  I believe there's two answers.  First, I'd like to define success at creating a line which can "do it all."

    1. The kennel clubs define excellence in the breed foremost, as excellence in the breed ring.  The breed clubs (kennel club parent clubs), follow suit.  I'd like to define "Excellence" as being a contender.  I'm not savvy in show terms, but this would be that your dogs would be the ones people are aiming to beat when you walk in the ring, from breed to group to BIS.  The last two are very important.  To be a contender at group and show, you must not only have a dog that is a competant example of the breed, but also a dog that has showmanship qualities.  I have never heard a group or BIS judge describe these as being anything other than arbitrary and unrelated to function.  Ultimately, to compete at this level, you must breed for show qualities like attitude, a showy gait at the trot (and the structure to support that), coat that may be more aesthetic than functional, symmetrical markings, and other non-functional traits.
    2. In the Border Collie, success as a working dog is almost unanimously defined as either working full-time on a commercial operation (ie, a family farm which produces most or all the family income - US Dept of Ag definition), or  being a contender in USBCHA Open herding trials. Again, by contender I mean that the spectators do not pick your run as being a good time to get a bite to eat or visit the porta-jon.  Most dogs that are in the second group are also in the first.

    There are currently no dogs which meet the conditions in item 1, which also meet the conditions in item 2.  Period.  In the UK, they've had 23 years to try to produce a show champion, who could even make it around an Open course (same as ours).  Two have managed to do it.  And those dogs couldn't meet the second qualification in a trial sense - they weren't contenders, they were just barely competant.  Because the UK club made awarding full championship status to dogs that could prove working ability, they now have decided to lower their original "working" standard to something along the lines of an instinct test.

    I think there's a lesson in there.  That's a breed that has bred true to work for 100 years, and in less than 20 years the show version can no longer demonstrate competency in the work that used to be the breed standard.   It's like a GSD that can't achieve the very basic Sch title.  Oh wait, there's plenty of those, too, I guess.  :(

    Why can't you breed for both?  Why are some breeds, like guard dogs and scent hounds, more successful at crossover breeding than others?

    I think the answer lies in how complex the work is.  Herding breeds must balance many opposing temperamental and physical forces to be effective.  They must be athletic without being fragile  (like the whippet) or inflexible (like the mastiff).  They must be independent thinkers without sacrificing biddability (like the coonhound).  They must have split second reaction times, without sacrificing impulse control.  They must be thoughtful without being hesitant (like the bloodhound).  They must have the desire to control prey, without the tendency to "lock up" (like the bird dog).

    The same is true to some extend of most work, but there are definitely some lines of work that are more complex than others.  You can really measure it to some degree by how long it takes to train a dog to the level of basic usefulness.  A guard dog puppy is born guarding and has bonded to the flock and knows the basics shortly after it begins to toddle around.  It takes years and years, on the other hand, to produce a dog that an officer can confidently trust with his life.

    So why can't you have police dogs that will win in the show ring?  Why aren't there herding group Westminister winners that are also herding trial champions (competitive champions, not the titles awarded on the qualification system)?

    The problem lies in genetics, and this is why wishful thinking, as I understand it, will never overcome the problem. 

    Performance levels in a breed depend on having a wide and varied gene pool to draw from.  The balance which produces excellence in performance, must be refreshed in each generation, drawing from different lines all the time.  The overall standard is homogenous, but there must be wide variation in the lines to maintain balance, because you can't breed for "balance."  There are some traits which, when bred like to like, produce something different and nonfunctional. 

    Eye in BCs is a good example.  If you breed moderate eye ("perfect" eye) to moderate eye, you will get a range of pups from strong eyed, to completely locked up.  In the next generation, it's possible to breed the strong eyed dog to one with less eye again, which usually will produce pups with moderate eye again.  Another less famous example is "hardness" - if you breed dogs that are very keen enough to work, but have just barely enough biddability, together, you'll end up with puppies that will sulk and refuse to work when the rules begin to be laid down.

    So to keep all these traits in moderation, you need lines that will breed true to the varying degrees of traits.  If I breed to Thomason's Burtersett Lad line, I know I'll get wide outrunning dogs.  If I breed to Wilson's Roy, I know I'll get great stock sense and terrific temperaments.  Without the lines that breed true, these traits die out, because of the way that breeding like to like tends to shift the trait to something cullworthy.

    So what happens when you add to the selection process, culling for traits that have nothing to do with performance?  Immediately you can see that you are narrowing your gene pool.

    A very simplified example can demonstrate how culling for arbitrary traits can lower performance.  You want the fastest racehorse.  So you breed racehorses - you select only the ones with the best times over whatever standard you're using, as your foundation stock.  But, now you decide that your fast racehorses must also have a tail that reaches below his or her hocks.

    After many years you have a line of racehorses with long tails.  Are they the fastest racehorses?  Or the fastest with long tails?

    In fact, if you know anything about horse breeding as well, you probably realize that these horses won't be particularly fast at all.  So many factors go into the ability to sustain speed with a jockey on board (not even counting winning races), that throwing in one arbitrary trait can threaten the soundness and genetic health of your line.

    Livestock breeders have known this for hundreds of years.  This is why the sheep breeders who created the BC breed deliberately separated themselves from the notion of showing, right from the start.  Awareness of what a threat the breed ring is to performance, has been part of the culture of BC breeding right down the generations.
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Workingdoglover
     I've also seen dogs that are WAY too sharp.  My trainer has a dog like this, and she really can't be trusted.  She would give her life for my trainer and her son, though, but her perception of threats are different from ours.  My trainer was on a walk once with her son in a stroller and this particular dog, and she left the dog on a down stay by the stroller, off the sidewalk by the post office.  She was just going a few feet away to put some letters in the bins.  A woman jogging down the sidewalk got too close to the baby for the dog's comfort and bit the woman before my trainer could do anything.  She said that she saw what was going to happen, but didn't have time to react.  Big lawsuit there, of course.  But, really, the dog was just doing its job, its just that our society doesn't accept that at all (not saying it should, necessarily, but I do think that we should be more considerate about things).

     I honestly feel some dogs should not be trained for portection work and excessively sharp or nervy dogs fall in that catagory for me. 

    Workingdoglover
     The point is that, yes, there are plenty of dogs that do schutzhund and just play at it, but those of us that train in schutzhund know the dogs that just have prey drive and those that also have defense drive.  And, hopefully, if we're looking to breed working dogs, we wouldn't use that stock to breed.

     And that is where it comes to be a test for determining temperament prior to breeding :)

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    AgileGSD

     I honestly feel some dogs should not be trained for portection work and excessively sharp or nervy dogs fall in that catagory for me.

     

    This would be my dog.  She has a great pedigree for SchH (west and east German working lines), but man is she one ball of nerves!  I can get her barking, lunging, maybe even gripping if I want, but she's a reactive mess at that state so she will NEVER train any form of "protection" work (I put "" on that b/c I don't see SchH protection as real protection work...but she will do neither).  If SchH is the true test of a GSD, than my Kenya is a total failure.  I love her just the same and she's quite good with obedience and agility, hopefully herding as well, but NOT a dog I would want breeding, even if the weak nerves were caused by environmental factors (her cousins, half brothers, and other related dogs do well in SchH and K9 police work).