Comparisons of working, conformation, & pets in your breed

    • Gold Top Dog

    Comparisons of working, conformation, & pets in your breed

    I got this idea from samshine's post about comparing the breeds from past and present.  I thought this would be a pretty cool topic, as well, because it seems that many breeds are divided into working, conformation, and pet quality, and all three are generally different dogs in look and temperment (although that's not always the case).  So, have fun with it!  :)  I'd list my breed, but I think I'd have a difficult time finding a Rafe in conformation.  ;)

     

     

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    Although there is a very distinct split between the AWMA (American Working Malinois) and the AKC/UKC malinois,  the belgians as a whole are pretty much dogs with titles on both ends.  The national specialty cataloges consistently demonstrate entries with at least one performance title with multiple titles often being the norm.  There are even working/sport titles (as in Ring, ScH, etc) on some dogs... Dogs with obedience, tracking, agility, rally and herding are not unusual at all.

    We have had MACH and OTCH dogs (with their conformation championships) win the terv national.  Now for the dream  a dual champion some day (Herding CH and Conformation CH)  we have those in all flavors of belgians as well.

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    West German high/show line

    West German working line

    East German/DDR working line

    Czech working line
     

    American show line
     

    German/American show line cross (can do well in American show rings)

     

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     Working dogs:

    Cord's sire won the American National Sheepdog Finals, his sire's parents were both American Champions and his granddam was Supreme Champion (winner over all UK dogs).   Cord's mother was a multiple trial winner and her parents produced some of the most winning (and useful) American dogs in the previous generation.



    Don's grandmother on one side, and grandsire on the other side, were the same two above who produced Cord's sire and were themselves National and Supreme winners.  His great-grandsire was also Supreme Champion twice, one of only a handful of dogs in history to so distinguish themselves.



    Ted's grandsire is that same dog.  Another grandsire was "only" Supreme Champion once.  His great-grandsire on another line was Supreme Champion three times, so that makes up for it, I suppose.  Wink  Finally, another line goes back to a grandsire who was Scottish National Champion and a very influential modern sire.



    Hap - sire was an English National Champion (working sheepdog trials) and dam was a grandaughter of a Scottish National Champion that Hap looks like exactly, except Dryden Joe had a long coat:



    This dog would not be considered breeding quality in conformation circles, but the line that throws the curly coat is also one that lends some irreplaceable traits to the modern breed.



    I don't know who this dog is (it's public domain), but it typifies the ideal for the conformation Border Collie quite well.  The top names in the conformation circles are driving the breed towards this picture as hard and as fast as they can.  They have done this by importing dogs from countries where the type is well established, Australia and New Zealand in particular, where the Border Collie is primarily a pet/conformation dog, much like the Golden Retriever is here.



    The result is basically that we have two different breeds that claim to be the same breed.  There are attempts to breed the two types together to get dogs that will win in the ring, but still have the drive and athleticism of the working lines.  But, results are as mixed as if they truly were mixing two breeds.  

    The conformation dogs have very dissimilar body types to the working lines, and that not necessarily conducive to athletic prowess.  And the working lines haven't been bred to "set" phenotype, so all kinds of wonky things start popping out when crossed on the very homogenous gene pool of the show lines.  

    It's like starting from scratch and the people who attempt it usually aren't serious enough about the show ring (in which case they go to all working/sport lines), or else they abandon the working lines in favor of the more predictable genetics of the show lines.

    Sport kennels are producing yet another flavor of Border Collie.  These have a superficial appearance that resembles the working lines they stem from (although many of these kennels favor "candy colors" like merles or dilutes).  Their personalities reveal how quickly different breeding goals can make a type of dog diverge from the rest of the gene pool.  

    Where working dogs must be patient, and have their drive balanced with biddability and self control, the sport lines look for plain old, "go-go-go" with no stop, resulting in highly reactive dogs that are like springs waiting to go off.  These dogs are incredible sport machines but they are not exactly the dog you'd pick to go hang out at the pub with the other shepherds, or quietly spend an afternoon watching grazing sheep.  Or even hanging out with your kids - or the neighbor's kids, worse.

    Jen was not sport bred but she'd pass for one - her breeder unfortunately didn't quite have a good grasp of what was needed in a good sheepdog so he turned out three litters in his lifetime, of perfect sport dogs but not so great at working.

    'Scuse the hair, she was just coming out of heat:



    Pet Border Collies are sadly, pretty much old working lines, back yard bred for the most part.  Working dogs make excellent pets for someone who understands what a Border Collie needs, so typically a working breeder doesn't consider any of their dogs "pet quality" versus "working/competitive quality."  Most give everyone their pick and then take what's left for themselves.  The ideal is to breed so that the worst possible combination of traits of the sire and dam (and their predecessors), will offer something useful, and also livable by extension.

    A recent rescue, back yard bred and sold as a pet, but related closely to Cord above:



    In Australia and New Zealand it's the opposite, Border Collies are pretty much mostly pets and the vast majority are from conformation kennels (or dogs descended from conformation lines).  These dogs end up in rescue to the same degree that working dogs do over here, so it's a fallacy that breeding away from working traits makes dogs less likely to end up in rescue.

    • Gold Top Dog

    All are the same.  The main difference is that "pet quality" animals in my breed are mismarked.  But many "pet" Pharaohs are great coursers.  And many specials don't get coursed until they are retired. 

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    mrv

    Although there is a very distinct split between the AWMA (American Working Malinois) and the AKC/UKC malinois,  the belgians as a whole are pretty much dogs with titles on both ends.  The national specialty cataloges consistently demonstrate entries with at least one performance title with multiple titles often being the norm.  There are even working/sport titles (as in Ring, ScH, etc) on some dogs... Dogs with obedience, tracking, agility, rally and herding are not unusual at all.

      That is actually what swayed me to get involved with Belgians instead of GSDs - the dogs I compete with in conformation, are the same as the dogs I "do stuff" with. Jagger's grandmother has won BOB at the National Specialty twice (BOS once to her son, Jagger's sire going BOB), has advanced herding titles, advanced obedience titles and advanced agility titles. Pretty impressive girl! http://www.isengardbelgians.com/Dana_Page.htm

     I actually started doing Schh with Jagger but I just didn't have the time to devote to doing that plus AKC Ob and agility. He really is only limited by what I am able to do with him. He is a very sound, drivey boy with a strong desire to please. One of my puppies is going to start Schh training soon, the grandfather of her owner does Schh with his GSDs and felt she had a good apitutde.

    • Gold Top Dog

    my breed (Beauceron) doesnt really have a split..which is mainly why i chose them.  I have a dream of one day owning a top working/show dog...and its achievable with the Beauceron, as many of the AKC CH have multiple performance/working titles in ring sports, herding, obedience, etc.

     As for akitas..even though they are in the working group..theyre not used as working dogs really anymore (originally used for fighting sports and bear hunting)..however, there is a BIG difference in the original Japanese Akita and the American Akita..i reallly wish the AKC would split the two into diff. breeds as most other countries have..they are no similar than the English and American Cocker are.

    • Gold Top Dog
    There are a lot of corgis with both breed ring CH and working titles, so not a lot of a split in that breed. There are some that win in the breed ring and are too big to work or just don't have the drives, and there are some working corgis that have color flaws or some slight structural flaws. Then there's Ares, who was an amazing working corgi, and his structure isn't bad at all, but it's throwback ~ he looks like corgis from the 30's, so not what the breed ring would want *now*. The breed difinitely has gotten more aesthetic ~ shorter legs, bigger body ~ which has the potential to compromise athleticism, but many are still very capable of performance in obedience, agility, herding, etc.
    • Gold Top Dog

    Show Lab:

     

    Field (working) Lab:

     And a pet Lab:

    • Gold Top Dog

     Okay, to be honest? There *are* no working corgis- unless you count hearing and service dogs. There are sport corgis, but real working dogs? No. There have not been for many years. I know some pet corgi owners who live on farms and whose dogs do some crittering, and help get chickens moved- and Indy will help me catch goats- but real working corgis? Pretty much gone. Their original job- to drive (dual purpose dairy/meat) cattle out as far as possible into common grazing lands so they'd graze their way home by the end of the day- has been gone since the abolishment of common grazing land in Wales- I think fairly early in the 19th century? And working traits go, if you don't keep them.

     Corgis are WONDERFUL pets. But I see a *LOT* of corgi breeders who delude themselves that sport titles are 'work'. I *ADORE* Indy- but he's an excepptionally drivey Cardi- and he's got NOTHING on a working-bred BC or GSD. He's a TON of fun, and he's got a good little work ethic. And there's a few other dogs like him. But there are not 'working line' corgis. It just doesn't happen anymore. There's some great dual-sport/show lines- and I really, really like to see that. But the breed is a companion now- not a working dog.

     Collies (by which I mean rough and smooth) are the same way. They've been a show breed for well over a hundred years at this point, almost by definition. The people who cared about looks, became the collie- and the people who didn't, ended up with Border Collies. :P The breeds were, at one time, one- although I think it's been even longer than that- Brookcove might be able to date it better than I could even guess. There *are* 'farmcollies' out there which ARE an ideal small-farm dog for someone that doesn't need as much as a BC can provide, and the AWFA is an organization trying to bring back instinct in the rough-type collie, mostly through judicious crossing with BC and English Shepherd. And there are collies who have the drive to succeed as service dogs. Wings was a pet-bred farm collie (several generations of dogs who had lived on a small farm, worked goats and sheep on a low-level basis, and were selected for that + eyes and hips)- and her work ethic was distinctly different from Mal's. And the ones I've met just don't measure up to BCs in terms of real working ability. (It's okay- they fill a different niche, they're a generalist, not a specialist- crittering, kid companions, inheritable good sense about livestock, and reasonable, if not spectacular herding ability- that and health is, IMO, enough to go on.)  

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    OK  I must disagree with no working Corgi's.  The Fantasy Farm cardi's work.....they have a flock they take care of daily.  In fact, the Fantasy Farm corgies are the problably the most active working corgis around east of the Mississippi. I used to see them weekly prior to this year long hiatis for grad school.   They trial in AKC and AHBA.  They trial on arena course and b course (what BC courses look like on TV).  There is a strong committment in Dana's breeding program to keep the structure and temperment necessary for herding.   Although there is a kennel in either Missouri or Arkansas that also has a large flock and working dogs.  I do see a difference in cardi's the show ring dogs do seem longer in back... may not be the most functional structure for long term sheep work. 

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    See, and I like the Fantasy Farms dogs, but I honestly do not think they are working dogs. I think they are very nice sport dogs. But given that the herding they are doing is NOT the type of herding the breed was designed for? I would consider that sports. Not work.  

    • Gold Top Dog

    It's okay- they fill a different niche, they're a generalist, not a specialist- crittering, kid companions, inheritable good sense about livestock, and reasonable, if not spectacular herding ability- that and health is, IMO, enough to go on.

    I totally agree with this.  The English shepherd (and the Aussie, through a different route) today best represent the remnants of the old proto-collie breed before the specialization of breeding for show and trials.  

    The split started when rural labor became so expensive during the Industrial Revolution that it became obvious that if the sheepdog breed was refined even just a little, much labor could be saved - to the point that a single man could care for thousands of sheep for most of the year (shearing and lambing excepted).  A dog that could be directed up mile high hillsides, across tricky paths, within feet of sea cliffs around the back of moor-grazing flocks, would mean that great flocks could graze land formerly unusable.  Dogs that had the ability to sort out singles or groups of two or three, from flocks of thousands, and bring and hold them for treatment, meant that the sheep could remain on their hirsels year round, being able to "coom tae th' sheepherd" rather than the shepherd going to them, and then set back out for grazing.

    So shepherds had specific skills in mind when they started setting up contests to test those skills.  Dogs had to find sheep a great distance away, loop behind them, and bring them back undisturbed (a dog that bolted up the middle could panic the sheep and drive them back over a hidden cliff or ravine).  They then had to prove that they could take directions while maintaining control of the sheep - in those days they used wild things that had never been away from their flocks - they had to be carried out to the field and dropped as the dog approached!  They then had to show a few simple "at hand" skills like penning (the pens were much smaller and had no gate), separating some or one from the group, and holding the sheep close enough to the shepherd to be caught.

    Any dog, any breed, was allowed to enter.   We have records of Old English Sheepdogs, now extinct drover's breeds, and European breeds all entering these contests.  However, the dogs known collectively as "collies" were the top performers, consistently. 

    Beardies, by the way, were also grouped together with collies - they were merely another variation of collie - and they did well for many years until their incompletely dominant trait of "hairy mouthed"- ness, largely died out through founder effect (consistently breeding to dogs that happened to look the same through being closely related).  In some very remote places you can still find strains of this old type collie, however. 

    Other strains of collie were named for regions from which they hailed - the Welsh collie, the Lancashire, the Dun, Elgin White.  The ones that did the best happened to be from the Borders - the mountainous Scottish border counties.  Success literally bred success as farmers bred their farm bitches to studs from these counties, and shepherds from this area sold puppies literally all over the world.

    This process began in the 1870s.  It's an interesting fact that we can actually date the split in the gene pool through the MDR-1delta mutation, which causes abnormal permeability in the blood-brain barrier and makes affected dogs highly sensitive to normally benign drugs.  Many dogs that trace their genetics to the show collie, even remotely, have this mutation, but the Border Collie does not.  The split seems to have happened (largely coincidentally) the exact year of the first formal, international level sheepdog trial in Wales (to which dogs from many countries came).  I can't remember off the top of my head but 1874 is ringing a bell. 

    At about that time, the upperclasses started to take an interest in the sheepdog as a show dog, also - the strain known as the "Scotch or Highland collie," to be precise.  Because the working breed was also in its infancy and much attention was being paid to outstanding working studs, which looked nothing like the dogs the "fancy" desired, the split happened very rapidly. 

    By the thirties the working strain was called Border Collie outside of its homeland, and by the next decade a separate studbook was established and the breed was officially called the "Border Collie" to distinguish it from the now completely decorative show collie.  Meanwhile, the unimproved collie of the last century still lived on in isolated areas, and overseas where the unimproved dogs had been carried over with immigrant families, or descendants of dogs brought over to work commerical farms.  These dogs continued to be generally useful farm dogs (Jacks of all trades, master of none) and survived as long as family homesteads continued as a mainstay of the English-speaking world.

    Remember that it's not the goal of a working breed to have a few, or some pups that "can" work, maybe, to a minimal level.  Just as in conformation where you want as many pups in the breed to consistently attain an ideal of appearance, movement, and structure, one wants as many pups in a working breed, working to the highest possible standard of work.  In fact it's more important because performance traits can only be maintained within a highly varied gene pool, because soundness traits must balance performance traits.

    Thus, I'm with pwca in the opinion that a single kennel of working dogs doth not a working breed make, no matter what the level of work those dogs are capable of.  If one wanted to rebuild the working ability of the corgi breed, to the level that one could buy a corgi pup and be pretty sure it would do whatever basic tasks were the goal, it would be highly dangerous to work only from the tiny number of corgis that currently work livestock.

    I'm not picking on Corgis here.  This is true of any breed that once had a specific function, that has now lost it through being bred largely for conformation. 

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    There are in fact a number of people who utilize corgis for daily farm work, and more specifically for herding their livestock ~ sheep and cows, and even pigs. Also, many of the dogs used in herding sport can - and some do - work as a herding dog on a farm as well.
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    See, I hear this all the time- especially from the Pemmie BYBers who are also horse people "BORN ON A FARM! WORKING PARENTS! CHAMPION BLOOD LINE! RARE COLORS". But I've yet to see more than isolated individual dogs here and there actually WORK. There's sport kennels. But the working days of both Pems and Cardis are gone. That's okay. I think we've got better temperament overall now, and a much better understnading of the serious health problems the breeds can have. And working or not, they're delightful, wonderful, brilliant dogs.