Comparisons of working, conformation, & pets in your breed

Oh, and here - As close as Mal (show bred smooth) gets to 'eye' ....

 (16 weeks old at the dog park) 

 

I'm hoping to actually try some herding with him- I think he will do well. But it'll be a sport. Not a job.  If he washes out of Sd training for lack of work ethic, my next candidate won't be a collie, I don't think. Maybe an ES, maybe an Aussie, but more like a GSD, possibly a BC.

 

mrv

OK  I must disagree with no working Corgi's.  The Fantasy Farm cardi's work.....they have a flock they take care of daily.  In fact, the Fantasy Farm corgies are the problably the most active working corgis around east of the Mississippi. I used to see them weekly prior to this year long hiatis for grad school.   They trial in AKC and AHBA.  They trial on arena course and b course (what BC courses look like on TV).  There is a strong committment in Dana's breeding program to keep the structure and temperment necessary for herding.   Although there is a kennel in either Missouri or Arkansas that also has a large flock and working dogs.  I do see a difference in cardi's the show ring dogs do seem longer in back... may not be the most functional structure for long term sheep work. 

 

 I have yet to have anyone be able to give me "proof" of there being working corgis. Whenever someone gives the name of a breeder or a website, it turns out the dogs are show bred but are selected for a more drivey temperament. That is good IMO but doesn't mean they are "working lines". I think there are performance breeders of corgis but not true working breeders. I suspect corgis are much like collies - have been bred for the show ring for so long that there really isn't a split, as they are all from a show bred background. The fact that the modern corgis hardly look like the original ones kind of supports that.

 I'm not picking on corgis either. We have a rescue Cardi who is an awesome performance dog. I just haven't foundany working lines in the breed and doubt that there is such a thing. If I was a corgi person, I'd be tempted to "rebuild" a working line of them but they'd not be able to be AKC registered ;) 

Lets just agree to disagree.... I see the time, committment and care that go into the lines of folks attempting to re-establish or maintain working ability for stock.  They may not work the way they used to,,,,,, but they work.

Well, I think papillons are still really great at doing their original jobs.  ;)

 Okay, being serious now, I have shelties.  Shelties really don't work any more either.  They look very different from the original spitz like ancestors from the Shetland Islands.  Modern shelties have a large infusion of collie blood (for show purposes mainly).  The idea of a miniature show collie took off and now we have our modern breed.  They're great dogs, though.  Very capable of lots of sports, great companions.  You can find some great breeders of very versatile dogs that can do a bit of everything.  Trey's breeder was like this- conformation as well as obedience, herding, and agility titles.  These are sports bred dogs, not working.  

 

We had  very handsome field bred lab when I was young.  I'm not too into labs anymore but there's a large split there. 

AgileGSD

 I have yet to have anyone be able to give me "proof" of there being working corgis.

Some people who have working corgis don't have websites advertising them. They have farms ~ with sheep, cows, pigs, goats, etc and they use corgis to work their stock. Also, many of the corgis that are competing in *sport* herding absolutely are working dogs. How do you propose to utilize a corgi for what he was originally bred for if you don't live on a farm? Sport herding would be the only way to do so, and the dogs don't know that it is sport and not work. Many of the working corgis advertised are from lines that have titles in both breed ring and herding. There are some lines I am very familiar with where many of the dogs in those lines do in fact herd, but aren't titled in herding. Depending on where one lives, there might not be easy access to herding trials while there are many more opportunities to go to conformation shows. Herding *sport* is also a way to show that the dog does have working abilities. The reason for there not being much split between working and show corgis is because of the breeders who show their dogs in breed ring and in herding trials. In order to title in both with the same dog, he must have the looks for the breed ring and also the working abilities. Also, the breed ring corgis vary regionally throught the US. Some are longer backed and shorter legged and others are more compact with more leg and more athleticism.

corgipower

Some people who have working corgis don't have websites advertising them. They have farms ~ with sheep, cows, pigs, goats, etc and they use corgis to work their stock. Also, many of the corgis that are competing in *sport* herding absolutely are working dogs. How do you propose to utilize a corgi for what he was originally bred for if you don't live on a farm? Also, the breed ring corgis vary regionally throught the US. Some are longer backed and shorter legged and others are more compact with more leg and more athleticism.

Don't get me wrong, I am well aware that Corgis participate in many venues. Working titles or breeders who do herding is not proof of a working line though. Collies can get working titles and some even do "work" at home but there are no working lines in the breed. Doesn't mean they aren't wonderful, smart dogs or that they have no insctinct or ability at all. 

 There are Amline GSDs with their extreme builds, from lines which have not been selected for work for 50 plus years who get herding or schutzhund titles. It doesn't mean the dogs could physically or mentally handle real work. There are no working lines or breeders in Amline GSDs either.

 I have yet to see a breed ring corgi from any region that was proportioned like the original corgis or even corgis up until the 30s or 40s. I'm sure if they pop up in litters, they go to pet homes because they'd not be "show quality" even if they were the best worker in the litter.

I don't own a Tibetan Mastiff (yet), but can I still play?

Show:

Working:

Pet:

Show quality Boston Terriers...

Pet quality...

 

There are no working lines or breeders in Amline GSDs either.

Wait for it ;-) 

Xeph

There are no working lines or breeders in Amline GSDs either.

Wait for it ;-) 

  To get working line Amline GSDs, breeders would have to totally change what theya re breeding for to the point where the dogs would no longer be Amlines. ;)

I happily disagree ^_^

Xeph

I happily disagree ^_^

 And where are these working Amline breeders? How are they proving their dogs and how are they selecting to better their dog's working ability in every generation? I have been involved in the Amline GSD show world and sad to say, breeders who even do anything with their dogs other than conformation are few and far between. My experience can be summed up by what a well known professional handler who had the aunt of my dog (his sire's litter sister, both were Select Chs and very well known) told me "She is the dumbest GSD I have ever owned, I can't believe how dumb this dog is! But her puppies are gorgeous and her movement is just beautiful - you should have seen her at the National when she went Select!". I have seen some German/American crosses that seemed to have good drive, sound temperament and functional structure but generally it is a one time outcross for Amline breeders because it doesn't tend to produce the movement they are looking for. I'd love to believe there are enough Amline breeders out there interested in working ability of their dogs, who are producing dogs who have the drive and nerves to do schutzhund or real life protection work. It just hasn't been my experience :(

mrv

Lets just agree to disagree.... I see the time, committment and care that go into the lines of folks attempting to re-establish or maintain working ability for stock.  They may not work the way they used to,,,,,, but they work.

 

 

and someone else said "the dog doesnt know its sport, he thinks its work"  and thats where i am in agreement. if you have a job and the dog is doing it then its work. yes they are heelers, drovers, herders, guardians, what have you...  but they are bred to be smart, and receptive to what ever command we want to teach it. isnt that the bottom line of ANY working dog? yes certain breeds are supposed to retrieve ducks... or protect flocks.. but if you watch animal planet enough you see all kinds of breeds doing all kinds of jobs. one of my favourite shows was K-9 to 5 where it showcased all kinds of dogs doing odd jobs. not competing but working beside their owner every day and all day. my favourite was the labrador that would climb up and down the ladder to get on the roof of a house... or the termite sniffing Australian Shepherd - we have an exterminator in Tallahassee that ALSO owns a "Termite Dog"

 now i know the point of this thread is to compare pets/show/workers but if its a working breed then regardless of whether or not its a show dog or yard dog ... it STILL has a working instinct.. which is why many of them - even the BYB pet working dogs - end up in pounds and rescues. they wanna work!! its also why i think very poorly of someone who wants to buy a dog from the working group only to make it a suburban companion.. sure it works out sometimes, but one trip through the shelter will tell you it has a poor rate of success UNLESS the owner finds clever ways to occupy the dog's time without using a crate, chain, or kennel 24/7. 

 

as for my breeds.....

Johnson .. or Classic... which has an infusion of English.

D*ck the Bruiser 102

and here is the original D*ck the Bruiser from the 60's...  i think. 

  his reputation was something any farmer/rancher would be proud of. one the farm hands was out looking for lost cattle when a pack of feral dogs jumped him. Lucky for him D*ck the Bruiser tagged along for the job.. when the strays got too aggressive the bulldog threw himself in among them and fought for his life. The farm hand ran back home for his gun, but by the time he got back all the strays were dead or dying. Now i kinda wonder if that story isnt blown out of proportion just a little... the number of strays was somewhere in the dozens vs the one bulldog. However if you've never seen a REAL bulldog at work then you will forever underestimate them. still.. i wonder lol But D*ck the Bruiser was such a GREAT dog that he has sired 101 pups that were named after him.

 

Scott, Old Southern White or Performance

 

 

the two men were partners for several years and each trying to preserve the dogs they grew up with.... which was a different vision for both as you can see for yourself. Apparently Johnson added English Bulldog and Scott thought that was the worst thing he could do to a dog so he set out on his own.

the two men seem to be VERY different. Johnsons website seems to brag about the number of champions in the ring, loads of pictures of past and present dogs.. but Scot has a simple set up with the dogs he works and shows now and doesnt show off pictures of the puppies. you have to email him or go look for yourself.

and here is the HYBRID .. a cross between performance and classic 

 

  recognise this guy? This is Chance from Homeward Bound AKA Sure Grips Rattler. i have a photo in a book of him doing a job - catching hogs.... so he's an actor, companion, AND worker. this breed can do anything you ask of it as long as you ask it, even if all you want to do is sit in the recliner and eat popcorn all day. Thats still his job. he thinks he's doing a good job picking up the pieces you dropped.  if you dont give that command he'll just guess what you want.. and you may not like it.

 

 

but they are bred to be smart, and receptive to what ever command we want to teach it. isnt that the bottom line of ANY working dog?

I don't really think so.  As someone who does do work with dogs every day, I have to disagree with this statement.  My sheep depend on my dogs' doing their job right, not just wanting to, or doing it well sometimes, or after my thinking they could if they had the chance.  It's whether the dog really has it when the rubber meets the road, that determines the actual usefulness of an individual dog. 

The next question is where to find more like that dog.  One would hope the answer could be, "to dogs that are bred like him."  I never want to be in a situation where the only dog in my breed, that meets my basic needs was a one off.  Where someone is saying, "Hey, American BCs can work - I heard of a farm in Texas where someone's using them!"

Today I had some sheep that strayed out on the paved road in front of the farm (someone had forgotten to shut the front gate).  I won't go into all the details, but to catch sheep out there, a dog has to be at once fast, accurate, and obedient - or all hell will break loose.  There is my road and a major road they can get away to, and they know once they are out there they can find a quiet place in someone's yard or crop field to graze before we can hike down and get them!

Since I semi-retired Cord, I haven't had a dog for this situation until now - and Cord wasn't that great at it because he hesitated when the sheep sensed his approach, allowing them to bolt down the road.  He also doesn't listen - very dangerous when herding on a traffic road.

Gus is both slow and goes too tight, again allowing the sheep to squirt off down the road.  He's also deaf - a serious problem if a car is approaching.

Ben's just plain too slow.  [lol]  He always has been.  He's so slow I don't like to use him because there's too much of a risk he will get hit by a car while he's still out there.

Today I used Ted for the first time.  Ted's a year and a half - he's had the speed and accuracy up to now but not the obedience.

Now his training has reached a point where I can trust him out there (uh, kind of).  And his breeding has paid off - he's got all the tools to take a situation like that in hand, and I can trust him to make correct choices while still being amenable to my guidance, even if it doesn't make sense (a car is coming and I need him to stop RIGHT NOW).

As his training progresses, I realize more and more what a precious thing, thoughtfully purpose-bred animals are.  I don't believe there's any higher honor that a working breed kennel could receive than to have its dogs widely known as "useful dogs."

i see your point when it comes to that job but what i meant was a working dog has a desire to do something to please you. it might be instincts that make that... breeding, what ever.. but in the old days a dog that lacked the tools to take on a command was culled, not demoted to "Pet" like they are today. the pets are given that second chance where someone says "Well... you sucked at that.. but you might be better at this other job.."

the other thing i've noticed while talking to old dog men is that many times when a dog does poorly for one person he does amazing with another under a different training method which has lead me to the opinion that nothing in life is absolute. just like children, dogs dont learn the same way and one set method wont work for all. 

So the dog that one person was about to shoot ends up getting a second chance when someone intervenes and tries another method. 

and of course time and patience also helps. but in your situation, when you are risking the lives of your sheep, drivers, and your dogs, you need a dog that is quick witted and willing to take commands even if he thinks they dont make sense.