Pomeranian V.S. German Spitz

Okay... this time I am going to type slow and after this if no one understands I really don't know WHAT to type anymore...

There are extreme variances in the Pomeranian breed. This questions the AKC standard, this questions what a reputable breeder is, and it questions whether or not we should divide them into two different breeds.

I personally think lots of BYBs and Puppy Mills have destroyed the Pomeranian "standard." It really is sad to see. For example my dog is a Pomeranian but seriously look almost NOTHING... I mean NOTHING like a Pomeranian. (that to me is extreme variance and needs to be recognized as a problem)

What makes a good breeder varies depend on the BREED. What makes a good Pom breeder is not the same thing as what makes a good Chi breeder. Both breeds have extremely difference histories and can NOT be compared in any way.

I feel that people who have been showing dogs for years and uphold the Pomeranian standard may deserve to breed. There is a huuuuge list of things you need to know about Poms in order to breed them (history of diseases, history of problems, history of physic, etc). People who are extremely careful and plan out every single litter (with Ch. sired litters) can produce high quality Pomeranians. If we only continue to buy from these people it will help stop the problem.

idk is there anything else I missed??? I mean gosh I think we've gone totally off subject, I'm talking about POMERANIANS

Pomeranian <3

I hope they do recognize the difference. This is what I'm preaching too! There is SUCH variance in Pomeranians that breeders want to divide them into two different breeds.

 

Um, I'm sorry, but which of those two will be the well bred ones?  Because about 5 times in this thread you've said that my dog must be badly bred because he doesn't meet the Lab standard.  Now when I say that people want my type of Lab to be judged against a standard specific to field Labs, you say that this is what you want for your breed too.  So according to your statements you want 2 different types of Poms....one show standard, and one badly bred....

lol first off why are we talking about Labs??? I never said your lab is badly bred. I said my Pom was. I couldn't tell you a single thing about a lab, I'm not a lab follower.

I PERSONALLY (like I JUST posted) think we should just keep the AKC standard Pomeranian breed and hope that the rest will STOP BEING BRED (aka dogs like Kayla).

seriously what more is there to argue? Anyone who is a Pomeranian owner or follower wants the same thing. Or there are those that think screw it there are too many dogs (like Kayla) lets just make another seperate breed.

Here's another thing. Kleins and mittels have largely avoided health problems- we have a VERY low incidence of luxating patella. We have SOME incidence of PRA, and some reported cases of epilepsy. Our health problems have much more in common with the Eskie than the Pom. So you want to make all the badly bred dogs- with their health problems- part of MY breed? HELL NO.

Pwca

So you want to make all the badly bred dogs- with their health problems- part of MY breed? HELL NO.

what the heck are you talking about? can you please read my posts Pwca I can't even respond to that since I never said that...

 All I can say is that you'll find very few who support your opinions.  A good breeder is a good breeder because their goal is not to make a chihuahua look like a pom.  Their goal is to make a chihuahua, a pom, a GSD ... a Lab.... into the best dog it can be according to IT'S standard.  I think suggesting that the breed just be made into two different types of dogs is not the answer.  The answer is to make all Pom's as close to breed standard as possible - and that would be nearly impossible at the rate that BYB's/Puppymills are producing poms.  But the best that can be done is to have REPUTABLE breeders keep doing the good work they do and do nothing but support them with your patronage and "rescue" dogs from reputable rescues and your local shelter.

Sera_J

 All I can say is that you'll find very few who support your opinions.  A good breeder is a good breeder because their goal is not to make a chihuahua look like a pom.  Their goal is to make a chihuahua, a pom, a GSD ... a Lab.... into the best dog it can be.  I think maybe you are being overly simplistic in suggesting that the breed just be made into two different types of dog, because that's not the answer.  The answer is to make all Pom's as close to breed standard as possible - and that would be nearly impossible at the rate that BYB's/Puppymills are producing poms.  But the best that can be done is to have REPUTABLE breeders keep doing the good work they do and do nothing but support them with your patronage and "rescue" dogs from reputable rescues and your local shelter.

okay I swear you guys are typing before I put up another post... People that just want to breed their Pom because they like Poms and want to make sure they look like Poms... those aren't reputable Pom breeders in my eyes. It takes a LOT to be a good Pomeranian breeder. This breed has so much history issues as you can see that it takes a lot to not have throwbacks, etc

Pwca

Actually, no, there are breed clubs in many countries that recognize the German Spitz- but most recognize them seperately to some degree or another. The UK does NOT recognize them as the same thing- Poms, Kleins, and Mittels are all TOTALLY separate breeds- absolutely NO interbreeding allowed. Some interbreeding WAS allowed at one time, but it was very limited and many years ago (early 80s)- when the first GS were imported to the UK, the intention was to change the Pomeranian standard to allow a larger size in addition to the smaller size. GermanSpitzworld.CO.uk has some articles on that. GERMANY is the only country which calls Pomeranians German Spitz- and because they do (and it's a breed that originated there), the FCI does. But everyone else separates Poms from the other GS, as far as I'm aware, even when they allow interbreeding in the other sizes. 

Interesting stuff. It does sound a bit like to the belgians. The FCI standard for belgians does forbid breeding between varieties, but because it occured in the history of the breed(s) the genetic possibility of prducing a different variety still exists ~ at least in some varieties, depending on what's dominant. So it sounds like with the German Spitz, you could also produce a different variety from the one you are breeding for, since the interbreeding is also in their history??

*Read the next post... I give up trying to explain myself*

IN SUMMARY OF THE OP TO THIS THREAD.

Kayla is a Pomeranian not a German Spitz. Due to a long line of bad breeding (which is common for Pomeranians) she resembles the old features of the Spitz dog.

Pomeranians should resemble the AKC breed standard or at least be CLOSE. If they are far from the standard it is a red flag that something during breeding was not right.

Support the cause and only purchase a pup from a litter that came from a long line of Champion sired puppies. This is at least a step to not supporting puppy mills and back yard breeders.

the end...

Yes and no. You*can* end up with a dog who is oversize or undersize- or with a poor head- but since the differences are more significant than simply coat color and texture, it's a little more complicated. 

corgipower

Every breed ~ except *maybe* for some of the most rare, and probably they too ~ has non-reputable breeders breeding them. Every well-bred litter also can produce faults, they also can produce throw-backs. Throw backs really aren't the same thing as faults. Having throw-backs or faults, in and of itself, doesn't determine the quality of the breeding. Funny thing about genetics ~ it can be unpredictable, despite our best efforts. I commend you on your desire to educate people about poor breeding practices. I do suggest some further research on how to clearly define poor breeding practices, because basing it *solely* on the physical appearance of a puppy doesn't qualify.

 

 

Great post!!!!!!  

 And yes, even the "rare" breeds have their share of whelping failures:  litters in which none of the dogs are healthy, to standard, or viable for participation in any breeding program.  This is the case with a litter whelped by a friend of mine.  The sire, through IVF, was the same sire as my pup's sire.  The Dam is a wonderfully gorgeous CH. and SC.  The get was 4 discolored, malformed and in poor health pups.  One of whom died shortly after whelp.  The other three couldn't nurse normally and were hand fed.  The dam wanted nothing to do with them.  Had they been my get, I would have had them put down.  As it is, the three survivors have each had medical bills in the thousands of dollars, and do not live healthy lives.

Having a Ch. in front of a dog's name means nothing.  I have seen, in the conformation ring, dogs that have the Ch title but would never be in any breeding program due to: flat feet, temperment issues, eye problems, poor color, bad coat, bad teeth and then there's just overal general bad health. 

But they've got a "Ch." in front of their name, right?  How does that happen?  It happens because rather than refuse to award points and a win at all, the judge chooses the dog that "best fits the standard."  Sometimes the handler is clever enough to accentuate the positive enough that the judge can't find the negative. 

Do you know why the pedigree is important?  It's not because you can look and see 5 or 6 or 10 generations of Champions.  It so you can find people that knew these dogs and you can gather history on them.  How long did they live?  What did they die from? How many Champions in their get?  How many times were they bred?    How many times were these dogs line bred?  How close was the line breeding?  How does this line compare with other lines in terms of conformation...in terms of temperment...in terms of coat...???  Why did the breeder select that particular dog for an outcrossing? 

Pedigrees aren't "proof" of anything.  They are stories. Non-fiction stories that a prospective buyer can look at and gather information from the breeder.  Informed buyers are a wonderful commodity to the hobby breeder of purebred dogs.  Breeders generally breed for specific type.  That type indicates loads and loads about the breeder.  Is the breeder breeding for both show and working ability?  Does the breeder also compete in performance events? 

I'm not a big fan of a breeder that breeds exclusively for show.  I want a dog that performs as well in the field as he would in the ring. A dog that has had a healthy family history, with long lived dogs that at an old age went to sleep and softly walked across the rainbow bridge.  Not dogs that die from a genetic disease that costs large sums and the outcome never changes. 

I'm lucky that in my breed a "throwback" would be almost impossible to whelp.  How far back can PHs throw?  A throwback would be a wild temperment, but physically these dogs have been unchanged for thousands of years.  But throwbacks do occur and even if they are only whelped one of every one thousand puppies, that's still alot of "throwbacks." 

Also there are huge differences between field labs and show labs.  Just as there are huge differences between Czech, German and American GSD lines, or racing Greyhounds vs. show Greyhounds, working Beagles and show beagles, working huskies and show huskies and the list just goes on and on and on.
 

Pwca

Yes and no. You*can* end up with a dog who is oversize or undersize- or with a poor head- but since the differences are more significant than simply coat color and texture, it's a little more complicated. 

OK, thanks! I might never fully understand the differences, but I appreciate the clarification.

Make it stop make it stop!! IT BURNS GUYS!!! AHHHHHHHHHHHHH Pom 3 I'm so glad we all have you here to explain genetics for us. I would have no clue otherwise.

I was thinking the same thing.  I saw a couple of "behind the scenes" news stories on the national news about the AKC.  Unless you are running a championship line or showing on a national/international level, there seems to be very little oversight.  I'm sure it would take nothing at all to register a variety of spitz that looks Pomish as an actual Pom.

It is kind of exciting to have registered dogs.  All of mine are, I have the papers for only two, but the fact of the matter is ..... as was featured in this news expose',  registering with the AKC is not rocket science and not necessarily accurate.  One fellow registered a mix, of unknown parentage who he had gotten from a shelter.  Another registered a completely fictitious dog, and yet another (a reporter) registered his RED TABBY CAT with the American Kennel Club.  Just because a dog is registered a Pom does not make it a Pom.  My Pippin does not strike me as if he were a Pom or a pure Pom, but he is registered.  He more than likely is a purebred Pom, but the BYB must have had a pile of genes that all the other Pom's werent' using... LOL.

One of my breed books does show definite breed classifications for these different Spitzes.  Pippin...... I didn't see him on the Pom page... even tho he is made up of odds and ends.