Pomeranian V.S. German Spitz

I think there is so much to learn, and we will never learn if we do not ask, examine, question the answers, trust the experts, realize that in matters like these, there may be no experts.  The authoritative voices in areas like these only know what they know.  They don't know it all.  Look at many of the Terrier group.  Many of them are decended from a variety that no longer exists.  Many "experts" can not even agree on what that source may have been.  The "Black and Tan" has been represented as a number of similar dogs...   There are a few breeds that are almost unrecognizable from those represenations that were first entered at Westminster a hundred years ago.

I think healthy scepticism and cooperative discussion is more educational than elitist declairation.  I don't mean to offend anyone.  I have a tendency to be passionate on topics I feel strongly about.  I think that is a good thing, but I find I can have a much better conversation when I clarify to myself and others that these are the facts as I understand them or that this is the line of opinion which I ascribe to.  I find this topic very interesting.  I hope to be able to participate in it and learn from it.  Thanks!

Mdog59

I was thinking the same thing.  I saw a couple of "behind the scenes" news stories on the national news about the AKC.  Unless you are running a championship line or showing on a national/international level, there seems to be very little oversight.

I'm not even sure what you are trying to say here. 

Mdog59

I'm sure it would take nothing at all to register a variety of spitz that looks Pomish as an actual Pom.

It would take a pedigree of at least 3 generations back with a registry accepted by AKC.  Could you register with a forged pedigree?  Probably.  Don't get caught though.  The AKC will fine you and suspend your privileges. (Not just with that dog, but with all the dogs with your name as owner or co-owner.)

Mdog59

registering with the AKC is not rocket science and not necessarily accurate.  One fellow registered a mix, of unknown parentage who he had gotten from a shelter.  Another registered a completely fictitious dog, and yet another (a reporter) registered his RED TABBY CAT with the American Kennel Club.  Just because a dog is registered a Pom does not make it a Pom.  My Pippin does not strike me as if he were a Pom or a pure Pom, but he is registered. 

 The registration you are speaking about isn't true registration but rather and ILP.

But I'm super glad that you and Pom are here to help me out with this genetics stuff.  Gosh all the studying I've done the last few years was worthless.
 

Seems to be a common condition.  Now I don't know what you are saying.  My point was that it IS possible for someone to inaccurately register with the AKC, either by being ill informed or on purpose.   Three, four or five  generations back in dogs is not a difficult accomplishment,  which only opens the possibility for a situation like some one breeding a dog the "call" a Pom where they come from, but in fact is that other breed.... like a G. Spitz.

I'm not making any claims about any particular dog.  I am just saying that one could see how it could be POSSIBLE for one or two lines of a breed, we'll say in this case, Spitz, to be bred and registered and sold as Pom's.

I'm sorry you feel you have apparently wasted so much time on education.  I would not see it that way, but if you have come here for 'all things genetic'  then maybe you have wasted your time.  Genetics plays a very small part in what I was discussing.  Perhaps that's what threw you.     

I was talking to a breeder in NH about this yesterday Mdog59. She was saying exactly what you were saying; so I wouldn't doubt that your assumptions may be correct.

I also was talking with 3 breeders in Washington about this. Due to all the lack of responsible breeding with the Pom now we've got three variances of the dog. There are those that support stick to the AKC standard and hope the rest "die off". Then there are those that feel the problem has become so bad that they want to make another class for dogs that look like "Pippin" & "Kayla"

One breeder in Washinton had one of her Poms at the park and a lady came up to them with their Pom and asked "what kind of dog is that?" the breeder replied "a Pomeranian" the lady was like "no THIS is a Pomeranian..." (the dog looked very similar to our dogs) I guess the breeder got into an all out argument b/c the lady kept saying the breeders dog was not a Pom! lol clearly is this another example of the ignorance about this subject around the world...

Kayla's pictures don't do her any justice in general but sometimes when I stare at her, then if I google a spitz dog picture they are identical. As well as every book and magazine I own say the Zwergspitz IS the german version of the Pomeranian. So I really wouldn't DOUBT that we could have a totally different breed walking around?? It's too hard to tell and too many people get upset over it.

I don't think we should make it Poms & Spitz or Poms & a new breed... I think we should try to educate and get the breeding of the Pomeranian under control. Since the standard varies SO MUCH from country to country I think that is going to be very very hard... so my goal is at least to get the U.S.A. AKC Pomeranian standard educated to common folk.

I do have issues with the AKC now... seems like almost every dog is "akc registered" but yet they look like they came from planet zoombah lol clearly breeding rights and laws are just out of control...

I wish we had more Pom people on the forum do discuss this with! I should send you a link to a Pomeranian forum type chat where its all Pom breeders, owners, etc. This is a really big common subject.

I have no clue but I'll stick with mutts

I know exactly what you mean.  I was a bit shocked when another poster said smuggly that you were basing your theory about Kayla on book pictures, yet that same poster was basing his/her theory about your conclusions soley on PICTURES of YOUR dog.  I feel so stupid living with a 3D dog and making observations when I could have simply posted a pic on elitist.com.... LOL!

When the rubber hits the road, it would come down to genetics, but for now it is all about oversight, paper work, education, and honesty.  Folks have brought dogs with them from other countries for years.  There is no frontpage headlines announcing  the arrival of a purebred.  Just because someone brings one or two of one breedtype with them, and they declare it as a Pom, doesn't make it a Pom three generations later IF IT WAS NOT A POM TO BEGIN WITH.    That Three generation AKC standard can still be followed with out the breeder being dishonest.  Sometimes breeders get into the business only after they have acpuired a PET that turns out to be a fine specimen into adulthood..... find some one else with the same breedtype (of the opposite sex).... Well, those three gens go by REAL fast and WaLa!  You have AKC's

I was one who used to think registered dogs were all perfect examples of the breed and that AKC was some kind of magic wand or golden seal.......it's not.   I think it was close at one point, but it has been muddied.  Concerned breeders need to work to put the zing back in the AKC reputation.

Funny story about genetics.  I have been talking to folks who have invested in the new DNA testing to determine breed or breed mixes.  OMG!  You should see the dogs (or dare I say the pictures of the dogs) and the breed possibilities that enter into the actual dog.  It is HYTERICAL!!!    St Bernard/Doxie mix.....   Lab/Chi/Deerhound/Congo dog.......   LMAO!!!!     Basically, it boils down to "Oh, look, it's a DOG ..... $120 pleeease".  

Me too.  I have had mutts most of my life.  It has been a freaky turn of events that has lead me to have FOUR pure and/or registered dogs.  I was not looking for any of them.  Did not pay for any of them...... LOVE THEM ALL.   The truth is that even tho my guys wear the "designer clothes", they are just mutts inside. 

The world of breeds is fun and interesting, but the general world of DOGS is a lifetime pass at Disney World!  :)

lol oh Mdog59 you make my days! Thank you for being a poster who is actually an active owner and aware of this problem! :o)

As for the DNA testing oh yes very hysterical! haha

ONE DAY we WILL have headlines stating "Pomeranian Problems Solved!" lol or at least I HOPE so... I'm going to deff spread the word to breeders to attempt to not just preach at SHOWS but all over! The "average" dog owner doesn't go to SHOWS or even CLASSES! People just buy the dog, love the dog, the end. They are helping me out with the new Pom website, when its all said and done I'll make sure to spread it around.

You know, I'm an active lurker on 3-4 pom show lists and I can say for a fact that I have NEVER heard of anyone proposing to split the Pom into Poms and spitz. The "Should we include kleinspitz in the pomeranian breed?" debate was last really argued in the 80s, and honestly, I've not yet seen anyone rehashing it. (Honestly, it's more controversial about the differnce between toy eskies and kleinspitz, since the breed standards are closer, despite the color issue- the head type and proportions are the same.). While yes, there have been a few (VERY FEW) kleinspitz used in past US pom breeding programs, their genetic impact is minimal. The poorly bred pomeranians won't go away and assigning them a different breed name is disingenous at best. Simply calling all those dogs something else doesn't make them NOT products of BYB pomeranian breeding programs. Additionally, what's to keep the type from reverting again- either all the BYBs will suddenly have kleinspitz but some will breed 'teacup spitz' (and you'll see the ruin of ANTHER breed) or they'll get new registered pomeranians and just start the issue over again? It seems to me that your bigger issue is less to do with the pom/GS issue and more to do with the fact that the Pomeranian's popularity has resulted in a HUGE number of irresponsible breeders. Naming or renaming won't help that. Educating the public is the only thing that will.

 Renaming the dogs registered as your breed that don't meet the standard as my breed is regardless a pointless thing to do. Whatever they have been in the past, they are NOW poms. They HAVE been poms for the past hundred years in this country, adn 120 years in the UK. That's a longer history than some BREEDS have (Boston Terriers, in particular, ocme to mind!). Our ENTIRE registration system in this country is based on pedigree- not phenotype. My friend's boston terrier (AKC registered, purchased as a pup from a BYB) is no less a boston, even if he's actually reasonably typey for a staffybull and grossly out of standard for a boston. My corgi's head fault (ears too short and a touch highset) does not make him an undocked Pembroke.
 

Cait 

I understand exactly what you mean and I am all on board with that.  It's not just the Pom's.  I have seen some questionable specimen come from a number of breeds.  I am just a bit curious whether or not there REALLY is a split.  I will be the first to say, I DON'T KNOW.  There are plenty who are better versed than I.  I am only asking because I have indeed seen them listed as seperate breeds.  Obviously, not AKC.  That is only an American recognition.  There are plenty of tried and true breeds which have not yet been accepted into the AKC.

I have an international breed book that shows some Italian, Polish, Russian, Iranian, etc, etc,  breeds that look very like another already established/accepted breed.  I don't think they are the same, just like the Sheltie and the Rough Collie are not different sized versions of the same breed.  I'm just thinking "what if".  I don't mean in a fairy tale sort of way.  This is very possible.  To find a standard representation (I don't mean Best In Show either) of a Pom in my area is very rare.  However, there are a whole host of dogs in my area that look..... that foxy, Finnish Spitz, Whatever Spitz, Spitz Spitz look.  Every time I am told it is a Pom, I get that look on my face like "are we lookin at the same dog".   I just came from the store where I ran into a friend, and of course being the perfect Dog Mom, I had pictures of my guys :)  When I told my friend Pippin was a Pom, she got the same look.  Her very words were, "I wouldn't that pegged THAT for a Pom".

I'm starting to think the Westminster Pom's are the circus freaks.  My Yorkies look like Yorkies, my Tzu looks like a Tzu.   My Pom?  Not so much.  I'm not saying he's NOT a Pom, but my "knee jerk response" is that he shouldn't be AKC.  He will be neutered the first week of March so at least we don't have to worry about any of those ill fitting Pom genes laying around :)

BTW.  I was at the vets office the other day and a woman had a Yorkie there that was the BIGGEST freakin' York I have ever seen.  It looked like a mini Afaghan (if there was such a thing).  So very far from any standard, but stunning just the same.  It was in full coat of layer upon layer of deep steel blue and rich reds and blondes.    Don't know what that had to do with, but I wish I had a picture.  What a stunning creature.

This Pom issue probably carries over to many other breeds, but it is a topic I really thought much about in the degree it has been examined here.  Another breed I have seen/heard much heated debate and confusion about is Shih Tzu vs Lhasa Apso.  I don't want to start a whole new fracas,  I'm just wondering how this carries over.

I suppose it is very possible that MANY of the dogs one sees on Petfinder type sites could actually be pures that just so far from the breed standard that they are labled "_______-mix".   I did not realize that pups from parents that conform to basic breed standards (not best in show or best in breed) could have pups that are so off the mark.  I have heard a number of folks say, "I was told it was a pure _____, but....".  I could, in fact, be a pure I guess.  How strange.

I still ascribe to the opinion that some pures that go so far afield could (in some cases) be innocent crosses, but it's not a common occurance.

I guess this is like when my Uncle worked at Brinks.  He was NEVER taught to identify every counterfiet bill.  He was taught ONLY to recoginze the real thing (I do the same with antiques).  We become SO ingrained to recognize the "show standard" that we automatically spot and discard any variation.  Maybe it is because we have been focusing on one specific breed that the topic of Pom's seems to be so drastic.  In the case of the Pom's, it's like the difference between  a freshly minted bill and monopoly money.  Is this because breeds like Pom's are so specialized?  I don't recall seeing variences like this with German Shepherd Dogs, Irish Setters, Huskies.....   Like I said, I have not gotten into this topic with other breeds.   It is very interesting 

Mdog59

I don't recall seeing variences like this with German Shepherd Dogs,

Then you've never looked.  Type in GSDs is amazingly different across the spectrum.

Mdog59

I did not realize that pups from parents that conform to basic breed standards (not best in show or best in breed) could have pups that are so off the mark.

 Now you can see why breeders spend countless hours poring over details within pedigrees, and speaking to other breeders as well as attending shows.

Mdog59

I don't recall seeing variences like this with German Shepherd Dogs

LOL, are you kidding!!?!? I have a purebred German Shepherd primarily out of respected west German working lines but also DDR lines.  She is a UKC conformation champion with 2 legs towards her Grand Champion title, judges have given great comments on her appropriate working structure, sound hips, and great movement.  She is AKC registered, yet we would be either laughed or jeered out of any AKC breed ring.  My point: 1) the variety that exists in German Shepherds is phenomenal (and most of us think it's a great thing) and 2) AKC standards and current conformation fads aren't really an issue to many great breeders of correct German Shepherd dogs.

I've seen purebred German Shepherds ranging in size from 50lb to 120 lbs.  If that's not variance, then I don't know what is.  Not to mention the obvious differences in lines (American show lines, west German high lines, west German show lines, DDR, Czech...) and in coat and color (short stock coat, long stock coat, long coat, red sable, black sable, black and tan, black and red, blanket black, bi-color, solid black, solid white, panda, liver, blue and cream, blue sable....).  It doesn't mean one is less "pure" than the other.  Instead of calling the ones that don't fit the standard something else, we just don't breed them.  Plenty of families don't give a flying turd whether their dog perfectly meets the breed standard and that goes for GSDs and Poms.  Dogs that don't cut it as far as temperament and structure are sold on limited registration with spay/neuter contracts as family pets.  In GSDs this is actually very common with long coated dogs.  A true long coat is a serious fault, maybe even a DQ (a GSD must have an undercoat and long coats do not).  However, people line up for years to buy purebred, well bred long coated dogs.  For someone that just wants a healthy pet with the correct temperament, a long coat is a steal because they are beautiful dogs and the price is very highly discounted.  Now anyone intentionally breeding for traits that are faults of the standard is not a reputable breeder, but it doesn't make dogs with faults any less pure.  Not to mention that the AKC's idea of a "correct" German Shepherd is totally up for debate....

applause for liesje!! excellente.