Pomeranian V.S. German Spitz

Infiniti

Pom, you posted after I started typing.  I'm glad you're not discrediting reputable breeders.  And as stupid as it may sound, what is our debate now?  It keeps revolving, and now I'm not sure what we're arguing.  

Here is what I've come up with based on everyones opinion. There is much ignorance and confusion about the German Spitz and the Pomeranian [not just on this forum, but in the whole world]. I hope one day both dogs can truly be respected for who they are as individuals. I also hope we can recognize this breed here in the US one day (officially).

Pomeranians with extreme variance come from long lines of bad breeding due to all of the confusion on the "true breeding standard" for a Pom. I hope that one day we can educate people about what a Pom is supposed to look like and only buy THOSE dogs. The more money we give to BYBs the more they will produce (as we all know). Hopefully one day we can also educate that buying a dog DOES take time and stop impluse buyers from purchasing dogs in pet stores, etc.

A reputable breeder varies depending on breed. People spend years of commitment to "deserving the right" to breed their dog. It is disrespectful of all these BYBs to walk around claiming they have the best dogs on earth confusing everyone.

If your dog is "far from" the standard I question whether or not it came from a reputable breeder. Pet Quality makes sense, slight variance here and there that makes it not a show dog. But when a dog looks nothing like the breed standard I mean come on... SOMETHING reallllly wrong happened. And that's not being mean that's just a fact right? (i.e. look at me! my dog is far from breed standard but i'm not walking around saying she came from a reputable breeder... obviously she didn't!)

Pomeranian <3

Ok hold up... everything you JUST SAID... I agree with... I am totally lost on why this is confusing and being misunderstood...

 

 

Because you keep saying one thing and then 2 min. later saying something else.  "I've been speaking to reputable breeders" then, "I don't believe there are any good breeders".  You keep contradicting yourself.  I think we are on the same page and then you say something like Kate and Kelly may be hiding the truth about their dogs.  ... That's bound to get a pretty big reaction.  As will there are "no good breeders" since in my opinion there are several on this site.

Look, you are preaching to the choir when it comes wanting to educate the public.  You'll find this ENTIRE SITE is pretty much dedicated to that cause so while this maybe a new idea to you... it's something we've been talking about here at idog for, in my case the last 3 years.

Sera_J

Because you keep saying one thing and then 2 min. later saying something else.  "I've been speaking to reputable breeders" then, "I don't believe there are any good breeders".  You keep contradicting yourself.  I think we are on the same page and then you say something like Kate and Kelly may be hiding the truth about their dogs.  ... That's bound to get a pretty big reaction.  As will there are "no good breeders" since in my opinion there are several on this site.

Look, you are preaching to the choir when it comes wanting to educate the public.  You'll find this ENTIRE SITE is pretty much dedicated to that cause so while this maybe a new idea to you... it's something we've been talking about here at idog for, in my case the last 3 years.

oh god you just totally twisted my words around NOW I get why you are all confused... please read again... I said if it is a fact that Kate & Kelly said their dog is "far from the standard" well if this is true I QUESTION whether or not the dog came from a REPUTABLE breeder. If a dog is FAR FROM the standard doesn't that raise a red flag??? THATS what I said... pleeeeease don't twist the words around...

I'll repeat... If your dog is "far from" the standard I question whether or not it came from a reputable breeder. Pet Quality makes sense, slight variance here and there that makes it not a show dog. But when a dog looks nothing like the breed standard I mean come on... SOMETHING reallllly wrong happened. And that's not being mean that's just a fact right? (i.e. look at me! my dog is far from breed standard but i'm not walking around saying she came from a reputable breeder... obviously she didn't!)

Pomeranian <3

If your dog is "far from" the standard I question whether or not it came from a reputable breeder. Pet Quality makes sense, slight variance here and there that makes it not a show dog. But when a dog looks nothing like the breed standard I mean come on... SOMETHING reallllly wrong happen. And that's not being mean that's just a fact right?

 

No, I'm sorry but it's not a fact.  Yes, deviations from the breed standard happen as a result of bad breeding - your own dog is an example of that.  However, there are other factors at play, and it must be remembered that it is the Kennel Club who administers the breed standard, and they are not without blame in the situation of many breeds being ruined.  There is at least one breed currently not recognised by the AKC who's owners (and there are not many in the US) actively campaign AGAINST Kennel Club recognition because of the damage they fear it will do to a beautiful and functional breed. 

I too question whether a breeder is reputable or not, but if someone has good reason or proof that their dog is well bred and all you have is a gut feeling, then by saying the dogs are not as well bred as the owners believe them to be you are calling those owners liars.  That is bad form anywhere, even on a message board where you cannot see the person's face.  Deviation from the breed standard does not, in and of itself, mean bad breeding.  It simply doesn't.  It's not a fact.  In the case of my breed, as I've said, dogs are intentionally bred to look like mine because they have a job to do, and it is the KENNEL CLUB who have contributed to this by rewarding a type of labrador that in many cases cannot do the job the breed was created to do.   You may question that, it is your right, but I'm not lying about my dog's breeding. 

I too support your quest for less puppy mills and BYB's.  Pretty much everyone on this forum does.  But the only way that will happen is true, factual education - on all sides of the table.  

Actually, no, there are breed clubs in many countries that recognize the German Spitz- but most recognize them seperately to some degree or another. The UK does NOT recognize them as the same thing- Poms, Kleins, and Mittels are all TOTALLY separate breeds- absolutely NO interbreeding allowed. Some interbreeding WAS allowed at one time, but it was very limited and many years ago (early 80s)- when the first GS were imported to the UK, the intention was to change the Pomeranian standard to allow a larger size in addition to the smaller size. GermanSpitzworld.CO.uk has some articles on that. GERMANY is the only country which calls Pomeranians German Spitz- and because they do (and it's a breed that originated there), the FCI does. But everyone else separates Poms from the other GS, as far as I'm aware, even when they allow interbreeding in the other sizes.

There HAVE been kleins imported to the US 15+ years ago and registered as Poms (this was prior to the FSS' existance with AKC). I don't have names and it'd be interesting to see if anything they actually produced has been maintained to the present day. I doubt it has. The type is significantly different.

The AKC recognizes the German Spitz (variety not specified) in their Foundation Stock Service and there are around 50 dogs registered with them currently. There is a breed club in the process of being formed but we'recurently negotiating with AKC- we want the varieties separated properly. There's a group on Yahoo for discussion about this. Lizzie is FSS registered, for example.

There are no kleins, to my knowlege, in the US right now- all those are mittels. There are four breeders- I will make five- in the US ightnow- Pat in California, Sharon Buethler (an AKC judge) in ND, Diane Cheatle in AL, and Kari Atwood here in Texas, who bred Lizzie. All these breeders have only mittels. I'm planning to breed Lizzie to Sno in 2011 (Sire of the current #1 mittel in Australia). I'd like to have kleins someday, too, but currently, there aren't any. I will have to import one to get what I want.

 

Pomeranian <3

FCI is the only registery that recognizes the German Spitz, right?... okay I'm seriously going to go dig up the article I have in a Pomeranian magazine I get monthly.

A Club President from England was questioned about this exact problem and he said that it is EASIER to just recognize the two dogs as the same thing. Many countries just call the German Spitz a Pomeranian and will only register it as a Pomeranian.

Right now I don't think there is a single German Spitz registered in the US... ???

 

Agreed Benedict

You are right in the sense that I did not directly talk to Kate & Kelly (whom ever it was) but Sera_J stated some post back that they are examples of dogs that were "far from the breed standard" but came from good breeders. When I just hear this I then QUESTION whether or not the dog came from a reputable breeder. If they then said "hey look this is their pedigree, these are the breeders, my dog happened to come out extremely different" yeah I won't argue with them. I don't think anyone is a liar. I do believe in variance, I just didn't believe in EXTREME variance coming from GOOD breeders... does that make sense??

Pomeranian <3

You are right in the sense that I did not directly talk to Kate & Kelly (whom ever it was) but Sera_J stated some post back that they are examples of dogs that were "far from the breed standard"

LOL....so all it takes to be considered, a reputable breeder by yourself....is to have 100% on standard pups in every litter eh? No deviations...no faults...no pet quality puppies...sounds great....now pray tell me...are you the one to show us all the way to do that?

Cloning?

 

ahhh this is frustraiting b/c ppl read ONE POST when I don't COMPLETELY explain it!

If a dog looks like a totally different dog OBVIOUSLY something is wrong! THAT is what I am stating. FAR FROM THE BREED STANDARD aka a dog that doesn't even LOOK like the dog! EXTREME VARIANCE! How could someone say they are a reputable Pomeranian breed if the Pomeranians look like Kayla for example??? Why is that so confusing?! lol I swear people read half a post or read too fast or something... this is seriously very easy to understand...

Here is what I've come up with based on everyones opinion. There is much ignorance and confusion about the German Spitz and the Pomeranian [not just on this forum, but in the whole world]. I hope one day both dogs can truly be respected for who they are as individuals. I also hope we can recognize this breed here in the US one day (officially).

Pomeranians with extreme variance come from long lines of bad breeding due to all of the confusion on the "true breeding standard" for a Pom. I hope that one day we can educate people about what a Pom is supposed to look like and only buy THOSE dogs. The more money we give to BYBs the more they will produce (as we all know). Hopefully one day we can also educate that buying a dog DOES take time and stop impluse buyers from purchasing dogs in pet stores, etc.

A reputable breeder varies depending on breed. People spend years of commitment to "deserving the right" to breed their dog. It is disrespectful of all these BYBs to walk around claiming they have the best dogs on earth confusing everyone.

If your dog is "far from" the standard I question whether or not it came from a reputable breeder. Pet Quality makes sense, slight variance here and there that makes it not a show dog. But when a dog looks nothing like the breed standard I mean come on... SOMETHING reallllly wrong happened. And that's not being mean that's just a fact right? (i.e. look at me! my dog is far from breed standard but i'm not walking around saying she came from a reputable breeder... obviously she didn't!)

THAT IS WHERE I STAND... if I ever met a dog that looked NOTHING like the breeding standard YES I would QUESTION where it came from. ANYONE would... people question ME every single day if Kayla even IS a Pomeranian...

I'm just going to continue to educate people about what a Pomeranian is SUPPOSED to look like and hopefully there won't even be a NEED for this type of conversation one day. Good examples to me of Pomeranian breeders are people like www.islandpomeranians.com www.crpoms.com www.bi-mar.com I could name a lot... those are the only sites I remember off the top of my head.

Pomeranian <3

Agreed Benedict

You are right in the sense that I did not directly talk to Kate & Kelly (whom ever it was) but Sera_J stated some post back that they are examples of dogs that were "far from the breed standard" but came from good breeders. When I just hear this I then QUESTION whether or not the dog came from a reputable breeder. If they then said "hey look this is their pedigree, these are the breeders, my dog happened to come out extremely different" yeah I won't argue with them. I don't think anyone is a liar. I do believe in variance, I just didn't believe in EXTREME variance coming from GOOD breeders... does that make sense??

 

Again, no, because to use labs as an example, field labs look very different than the breed-standard show labs.  And those breeding field labs, for a large part, excellent breeders who title their dogs in Field Trials.  There is SUCH "extreme variance" in the two different types of labs that there is a movement to actually have them recognised as different breeds entirely by the Kennel Club.  Lab lovers WANT that separation, so that those of us lucky enough to own a field lab don't have to wander around defending our dog's breeding to people who think they've been badly bred.

LOL....perhaps you might get a better response if you tried

"Why is there such a variance of type in breedings of the same breed?"...asking why is more productive, than assuming you know why...which from what you've written...you don't.

You do realize of course that a standard is a collection of words...like "moderate" "steep" "heavy bone" "medium length" etc that are completely open to interpretation? It is not as exact as a blue print and we aren't chiseling dogs from stone...but working with genes, and plenty of them...right?

Pomeranian <3

I'll repeat... If your dog is "far from" the standard I question whether or not it came from a reputable breeder.

 

And you don't see how someone who feels their dogs did come from a reputable breeder would be tremendously offended?  From everything Kate and Kelly have said about their breeders, they ARE reputable.  They have dogs in the show ring, they are trying to make the breed better, they do test their dogs for known diseases and have a known history of their breeding stock and all problems, if any. They make sure the dogs are going into good homes, they don't just hand off a puppy cause someone shows up with cash (the main earmark of a disreputable breeder).  This is what reputable breeders do. Dogs ARE just like people in the fact that genetics are VERY complicated, I'm not going to pretend to know everything about them, far, far from it. But daily our Scientists are learning more about them, this is not A+B = A or B. This is sometimes K shows up and no one knows why.  But as I've said REPEATEDLY, yes MOST dogs that are well out of Standard comes from byb/puppymills. In fact, i said 'For every one 14 pound pom from a reputable breeder that are a thousand 14lbs poms from BYB/Puppymills."  Again, we aren't disagreeing with you about that.  Never have I wavered from my stance on that subject.

As far as "twisting your words", those are quotes from your posts.  This is how it is reading to me and from what I see here, others as well.  If this is not what you are saying then please clarify.
 

Benedict

There is SUCH "extreme variance" in the two different types of labs that there is a movement to actually have them recognised as different breeds entirely by the Kennel Club.  Lab lovers WANT that separation, so that those of us lucky enough to own a field lab don't have to wander around defending our dog's breeding to people who think they've been badly bred.

I hope they do recognize the difference. This is what I'm preaching too! There is SUCH variance in Pomeranians that breeders want to divide them into two different breeds.

Pomeranian <3

I hope they do recognize the difference. This is what I'm preaching too! There is SUCH variance in Pomeranians that breeders want to divide them into two different breeds.

 

 

Well, call your new breed of incorrect poms something else. Don't mess up another breed by lumping all the badly bred dogs with higher incidence of health problems into it!