Pomeranian V.S. German Spitz

Benedict

Pomeranian <3

Kayla has a 10 GENERATION PEDIGREE saying she is pure bred. Registered with APRI which is by far the worst of them all.

 

Now I am confused.  Do you believe her pedigree, or not?  If not, and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't, some registries are known for lying on the papers, why does it matter how many generations it is? 

 

Sera_J

Pomeranian <3

We are all on the same page if it is agreed that POORLY BRED POMERANIANS produce beyond the standards. It was my understanding that you all felt a long line of Ch. Sired Poms could produce such a thing? I say No. The only way you will get a "throwback" is through bad breeding

 I give up.
 

Pomeranian <3

Sera_J

Pomeranian <3

We are all on the same page if it is agreed that POORLY BRED POMERANIANS produce beyond the standards. It was my understanding that you all felt a long line of Ch. Sired Poms could produce such a thing? I say No. The only way you will get a "throwback" is through bad breeding

 I give up.
 

throwback = back to traditional German Spitz qualities (i.e. size, shape, features... etc)
Okay so we are not in agreement. That means that you feel lets take my good contact/friend Sunny & Celeste for example... breeds Ch. Sired Pomeranians. You think it is possible for one of their litters to have a dog like Kayla? I'm sorry but there is NO WAY... Dogs that look like Kayla or have many faults come from horrible breeding lines (as says the very quote in the book). 

Yes.  Maybe not as poorly bred as Kayla, but if you'll refer back to pages 2 and 3 you'll see both Kate and Kelly bring up two dogs that are reputably bred that are far from standard.

Throwbacks are possible no matter what the quality of breeding.  So are dogs that look "different" than the breed standard.  Did you read my earlier post about my own dog?  

I am sorry, but you are wrong in your assumption that strange sizes occur only as a result of bad breeding. 

Sera_J

Yes.  Maybe not as poorly bred as Kayla, but if you'll refer back to pages 2 and 3 you'll see both Kate and Kelly bring up two dogs that are reputably bred that are far from standard.

Benedict

Throwbacks are possible no matter what the quality of breeding.  So are dogs that look "different" than the breed standard.  Did you read my earlier post about my own dog?  

I am sorry, but you are wrong in your assumption that strange sizes occur only as a result of bad breeding. 

Pomeranian <3

This in case I really question whether or not Kate & Kelly got their dogs from reputable breeders? ALSO... keep in mind you can't really compare two different breeds. How a Pom breeds is totally different than how a... GSD breeds, ya know? Different history, different requirements, etc etc...

If the dog is "far from standard" do you honestly feel the dog was "reputably" bred? Yes I totally agree about "pet quality" with a few minor details wrong as Pwca stated. But "far from" eehhh... they probably weren't as well bred as you THINK, ya know?

That is incredibly offensive and if you'd said that to someone else on this board you'd likely find yourself being edited and warned by me.  

Dogs like mine are INTENTIONALLY bred to do the work that show-bred labs are physically unable to do.   I would suggest that you educate yourself before debating. 

Pomeranian <3

You think it is possible for one of their litters to have a dog like Kayla? I'm sorry but there is NO WAY... Dogs that look like Kayla or have many faults come from horrible breeding lines (as says the very quote in the book).

I feel like we're constantly circling back and forth on this.  Yes, dogs from BYB produce dogs that look like Kayla, definitely.  And will the offspring of two excellent parents produce a Kayla look-alike?  Probably not.  But is it at least in the realm of possibility?  Yes.  No, you will probably not get a dog with all of Kayla's faults from two champion parents, but it is not impossible.   Many breeders have stories about how pups had unexpected traits and characteristics.

I don't think any of us here are saying that you can fully expect a Kayla from a carefully planned breeding.  But since genetics has proven that strange faults can happen, I don't think any of us discount it either. 
 

And I keep getting confused as to why we're debating the topic of the results of bad breeding.  Yes, there are a lot of Poms who look like Kayla because there are so many BYB.  The general populace does not want to wait for a carefully planned pet-quality pup from a reputable breeder.  So they shop BYB or pet store.  The growing deviation from the breed standard in your average family Pom is NOT perpetuated by genuine reputable breeders.  It is from the law of supply and demand, through the facilitation of BYB. 

The best breeders in the world.  That's what genetics is.  That's why the study of it never ceases, as it is a delicate system process that produces outcomes that scientists didn't predict, much less breeders. 

I feel like you keep touching on the idea that reputable breeders are helping to produce deviated Poms.  And I find that idea quite distasteful.  I'm hoping that's not what you meant, but please be careful, as that is what it sounds like sometimes. 

Infiniti

And I keep getting confused as to why we're debating the topic of the results of bad breeding.  Yes, there are a lot of Poms who look like Kayla because there are so many BYB.  The general populace does not want to wait for a carefully planned pet-quality pup from a reputable breeder.  So they shop BYB or pet store.  The growing deviation from the breed standard in your average family Pom is NOT perpetuated by genuine reputable breeders.  It is from the law of supply and demand, through the facilitation of BYB. 

The best breeders in the world.  That's what genetics is.  That's why the study of it never ceases, as it is a delicate system process that produces outcomes that scientists didn't predict, much less breeders. 

I feel like you keep touching on the idea that reputable breeders are helping to produce deviated Poms.  And I find that idea quite distasteful.  I'm hoping that's not what you meant, but please be careful, as that is what it sounds like sometimes. 

Pom, you posted after I started typing.  I'm glad you're not discrediting reputable breeders.  And as stupid as it may sound, what is our debate now?  It keeps revolving, and now I'm not sure what we're arguing.