Pomeranian V.S. German Spitz

It depends. In Germany, it is not allowed to cross the different types. Dogs may be re-classified for showing purposes only, but those dogs can't be bred. In other countries (France) it's legal to cross all the varieties (possibly with the exception of the Keeshond- my French isn't very good, but I've got a pedigree from a dog who was exported to England that had kleins and grosses and mittels all in the 3 generations I have. It's worth pointing out that the quality of poms in France isn't notable for bieng particularly good. The countries which most Pom breeders import from- the UK and Finland and Australia- don't allow crossbreeding.) In Australia, Kleins and mittels are recognized as varieties of a single breed but I believe crossbreeding is not allowed between the varieties.

To add to the confusion, what is translated as 'variety' really doesn't eqate to AKC's usage of variety. Its not 'all the same except for this one thing'. The physical standard is actually different- klein and zwerg spitz have different heads from gross and mittel and wolfspitz (the proportion of muzzle to backskull is different) and the ear proportions are diffferent.) Wolf spitz come only in grey sable; grossespitz come only in black, white and brown; mittel, klein and zwerg come in any color (except for merle, which doesn't genetically exist in the breed- this is another raeson I object to poms being called kleins- just because an AKC pom breeder who also had shelties supposedly had a random genetic mutation and got merles doesn't make it truly part of the breed- it's not allowed in Germany in ANY size!). The zwerg comes in brindle,even- it's allowed in the mittel and klein but I don't know anyonewho has had one. We do have tan points and various parti patterns, though, and the white toes-chest pattern that Lizzie has is legal in Australia and the UK for mittels and kleins, although obviously not in poms.

 

Another thing is that I *haev* seen bitches like Kayla used in reputable breeding programs and considered a brood bitch. Some of them reproduce their faults and others don't. A good breeder won't use a ton of them, but they ARE out there.

FCI is the only registery that recognizes the German Spitz, right?... okay I'm seriously going to go dig up the article I have in a Pomeranian magazine I get monthly.

A Club President from England was questioned about this exact problem and he said that it is EASIER to just recognize the two dogs as the same thing. Many countries just call the German Spitz a Pomeranian and will only register it as a Pomeranian.

Right now I don't think there is a single German Spitz registered in the US... ???

Pwca I would love to see who uses dogs like Kayla for breeding... the breeders I know would have a fit! The Pomeranian breeders I know are extremely extremely strict and careful (and like I said one lady has been doing it for 46 years so they are deff not newbies). Their dogs look nothing like Kayla (as they should).

Pwca do you feel it is more of a growing problem than we think? I mean look at how confusing it is right now to really figure out the problem? Show judges & breeders would go crazy on this thread. One in particular told me my dog is a DISGRACE to the breed!!! can you believe that?

Pomeranian <3

Okay take idk something basic like a LAB for example. Everyone has a fairly good idea about what a lab looks like right? Okay so what if the lab had flopped over ears (like an Aussie for example). And his tail curled up (like a Pom for example).... Would you call that a "pet quality" lab, or would you go "hmmm that CAN'T be pure bred...." An example like this, is the type of problem we have with Pomeranians. In the world of Pomeranian we'd just call the Lab "oh its a pure bred its just pet quality" HA! That lab is NOT "just pet quality" its deff a mix of some kind or went through a really long line of bad breeding...

 

I wanted to address this point because it's near and dear to my heart.

I have a lab - a beautiful well bred black one, with titled parents.  His name is Ben, hence my login ID.   I guarantee that Ben looks nothing like most of the labs you've ever seen, and nothing like ANY of the labs you would ever have seen at a dog show if you've been to any.  I promise you, he's purebred - but he's smaller, thinner, slightly longer, more muscular and with a longer muzzle than any lab who'd get a Ch. title anywhere.  The reason?  Ben is a field-type lab - the ones bred to hunt birds with their owners all day long.  He IS pet quality because KC's reward the bigger, stockier, square-headed bench-type labs, but that doesn't make him less of a purebred.  Sure, people ask me all the time what he's mixed with because none of them have seen a lab like him - they just aren't as common as bench labs.  That's just fine with me, it makes him special - it also makes him fast....ever seen a lab outrun a greyhound, or even a collie?  I've got one. 

My point is that while people may "have a good idea of what a lab looks like", in many cases they'd be wrong, if their idea of a lab is the popular chunky type. 
 

"The Pomeranian derives from the family of dogs we know today as the German Spitzen, of which five breeds are recognized by Europe's Federation Cynologique Internationale (FCI). The largest of these is the German Wolf-spitz, standing 18in and possessing the characteristics spitz coat in a wolf gray coloration. The Deutscher Grossspitz, sometimes call the Giant or Great Spitz, stands at least 16in and can be colored in any solid color. The Deutscher Mittelspitz (Standard) stands about 14in. Kleinspitz (Small or Miniature) stands about 11in. The Zwerspitz (Toy) standing about 8in completes the family. The Kleinspitz has retained the appellation Victorian Pomeranian, and the Zwergspitz is identical to the Pomeranian." - "Pomeranian: A Kennel Club Book"

One in particular told me my dog is a DISGRACE to the breed!!! can you believe that?

I believe it. I had Ares at a trial, and a judge was chatting with some people and saw my dog. Someone in the group asked if he was one of those new breeds ~ "You know, those Swiss Valoonds?" I said "A Swedish Vallhund? No. He's a corgi." Mind you, he looks like what corgis looked like in the 30's. The judge then went back to chatting with his friends abotu a GSD he had seen in the ring that he couldn't even recognize was a GSD, and then quite loudly said something about people shouldn't bring such dogs to a show. Clearly he was making a reference to my dog. Apparently it never occured to him that perhaps my dog was there for the obedience rings ~ considering we were doing things like heeling and hand signals and recalls while we walked through the show grounds. I wouldn't let a comment like that get to you.

Pwca

Sera-

The breeders might be insulted, but every single one of them will admit they DO get pet quality puppies- and puppies like Kayla DO happen. The good breeders are realistic. It DOES happen, but it's super-rare, for the most part- you'll generally get one of Kayla's faults, but not all of them- but I know of champion-champion breedings with pups who look similar at 12 weeks- I'd want to see what she matures to before saying they matured the same way. 

The larger dogs seem to creep back in via brood bitches- a lot of pom breeders use larger girls of varying quality as broods without showing them.  

 

 Cait,

I'm not sure where we are disagreeing.  I said essentially what you are saying....
 

"Several poorly bred Pomeranians can far exceed the weight limit set down in the breed standard and can be as much as 10 or even 15lbs" - "Pomeranian: A Kennel Club Book"

"Not only do standards vary from country to country, but people's interpretations of breed standards vary also... As with most breeds, there are variances between the standards used in the US and that in Britain." - "Pomeranian: A Kennel Club Book"

Pomeranian <3

Pwca I would love to see who uses dogs like Kayla for breeding... the breeders I know would have a fit! The Pomeranian breeders I know are extremely extremely strict and careful (and like I said one lady has been doing it for 46 years so they are deff not newbies). Their dogs look nothing like Kayla (as they should).

Pwca do you feel it is more of a growing problem than we think? I mean look at how confusing it is right now to really figure out the problem? Show judges & breeders would go crazy on this thread. One in particular told me my dog is a DISGRACE to the breed!!! can you believe that?

 

 I'll say it again, the people that use dogs like Kayla to breed are the BYB's and puppymills.  Breeders looking to make a quick buck.  It's just like every other breed that the public has the slightest interest in it. Except some breeds have horrible health problems and aggression issues that go with being ill bred and against standarsd.  Weims and JRT's are my breeds of choice.  Both of these breeds are exploited for $$$$ by puppymills, both of these breeds have some serious aggression issues unless breeders are looking to trim that and get rid of it from their breeding stock.  Weims have hip dysplasia, mega esophegeus (sp), inverted eye lashes, weak hind quarters, essentially making them lame at an old age.  JRT's have even MORE problems. That's if someone gets their hands on a badly bred weim or jack and continues producing more.  My breeder gets livid over this, this is normal for reputable breeders who work so hard to make their breed better, this is not just limited to Pomeranians.

YES, it makes a lot of people mad that byb/puppymills are using non-standard stock to breed for profit. 

But another way to look at it as i mentioned before.  You can have 3 "reputable" breeders of a specific breed and due to the standard being somewhat subjective (and as Corgipower mentioned the AKC has no small part in this) you can have 3 VERY different looking "purebred" dogs.  But, just because a lab looks like a mix... doesn't make it a mix.  It doesn't HAVE to be mixed.  As two very good dog owners have told us on this thread.  Could Kayla be a mixed breed?  Absolutely.  But the odds of Ben or Ollie being just 'rare occurrences' of a 'throwback' from a litter that is otherwise well bred and from reputable breeders, is 99.9%, as both have siblings that are pointed or titled already.  Meaning their siblings have been proven to be their breeds standard, or very close to it.

The confusion being had here is your saying that "throwbacks" shouldn't happen if the parents are titled, me and several others are here to say yes they can.  But, maybe what you MEANT to say is that people who breed strictly for 'pet quality' litters, such as BYB/Puppymills are more likely to create 14lbs poms that look like chihuahua's... then YES.  That's EXACTLY what i'm saying. BYB/Puppymills are not reputable. They may use a chi stud to a "Pom" litter and say that X pom stud actually was the father and then register the litter as such.  Happens all the time.
 

Pomeranian <3

"Several poorly bred Pomeranians can far exceed the weight limit set down in the breed standard and can be as much as 10 or even 15lbs" - "Pomeranian: A Kennel Club Book"

 

Yes....? That's what we've been saying. A 14lbs pom CAN be a pom and not a klein spitz. 

Amen, i think we may all be on the same page. 

Pomeranian <3

The Kleinspitz has retained the appellation Victorian Pomeranian, and the Zwergspitz is identical to the Pomeranian." - "Pomeranian: A Kennel Club Book"

 

I'm just slightly confused by this.  Doesn't this excerpt show that the Klein and Zwerg (Pom) are indeed two different breeds?  I didn't think anyone here was trying to argue that they are the same.   

And truthfully, since you've stated that Kayla's from BYB, I'm not too surprised that she has the number of faults that she does.  She's most likely from a long line of dogs with faults who were bred repeatedly, and produced the physical characteristics that Kayla has.  Who knows what kinds of faults may have existed in the dogs in her parentage?  I do agree with you that it is probably more uncommon that the progeny of two ch. Poms would have all the characteristics that Kayla does, but I do not think it is impossible.  I definitely agree with others that two conformationally sound dogs CAN produce a pup with serious faults.

In regards to the issue of how there are so many varieties of German Spitz...no, I don't think it is a problem.  As far as I am concerned, the five size varieties are very much akin to the three size varieties in Poodles, or the two coat variations in the Collie.  Obviously, at the time of foundation breeding, the developers of the German Spitz felt the need to have different sizes.  And all of them still exist, so I don't think any of the varieties is unnecessary. 

And if a German Spitz came over and had pups, AKC would probably name them German Spitz pups.  After all, I believe (but correct me if I'm wrong) the German Spitz is included in the AKC's Foundation Stock Registry?  The AKC is very aware of the German Spitz, but it has not met the requirements for inclusion.    

The only big thing that keeps confusing me is the idea that we have Kleins running around inter-breeding with Poms in this country.  They're not currently recognized by the AKC, in part because they're not in this country.  Ergo, there can't be a whole lot of basis that there's a chance that some Kleins could me masquerading as Poms.  This is a hard topic, because there are breeders in other countries actively breeding true Kleins, and I don't think we should be perpetuating the idea that faulted Poms could be Kleins.

And now, I am off to find coffee.

Well hense my mission and goal to educate people to NOT buy a Pomeranian unless it is of AKC standard. The breeding of the Pomeranian out of control!

Kayla has a 10 GENERATION PEDIGREE saying she is pure bred. Registered with APRI which is by far the worst of them all.

If your dog does not look like this.... www.islandpomeranians.com www.crpoms.com www.bi-mar.com THEN THEY SHOULD NOT BE BRED. Period.

Hopefully when my website www.pomeranianpuppies.org when it becomes all finished and done it can help educate this problem.

"Due to extreme poor breeding of the Pomeranian you can recognize three different faces today that are not official. The Chow/teddy-bear type, the baby-doll type, and the spitz type. The Chow/tedy bear has a very short, broad muzzle almost resembling a Chow Chow. A baby doll is a more refined version of the teddy bear, and the spitz type has that longer, older type of muzzle." - "Dog Fancy Magazine: Pomeranians"

So unless we stop the stupid puppy mills, bybs, and pet stores then these "three faces" will keep showing up

We are all on the same page if it is agreed that POORLY BRED POMERANIANS produce beyond the standards. It was my understanding that you all felt a long line of Ch. Sired Poms could produce such a thing? I say No. The only way you will get a "throwback" is through bad breeding

Pomeranian <3

Kayla has a 10 GENERATION PEDIGREE saying she is pure bred. Registered with APRI which is by far the worst of them all.

 

Now I am confused.  Do you believe her pedigree, or not?  If not, and I wouldn't blame you if you didn't, some registries are known for lying on the papers, why does it matter how many generations it is? 

 

Pomeranian <3

We are all on the same page if it is agreed that POORLY BRED POMERANIANS produce beyond the standards. It was my understanding that you all felt a long line of Ch. Sired Poms could produce such a thing? I say No. The only way you will get a "throwback" is through bad breeding

 I give up.