Pomeranian V.S. German Spitz

*Please view the next two posts of mine....*

Pomeranian <3

In my opinion (as well as many reputable Pom breeders across this country) feel that the whole "pet quality" label is the reason why we still have breeding issues.

 

All litters have pet quality dogs in them.  Some litters from even the BEST breeders could have 12 dogs and only one or two show quality dogs.  Conforming to breed standard isn't about one flaw or even half a dozen...all dogs, even great show dogs, have flaws - but they are usually minimal and offset by great features in other areas.  A show dog is about the whole package.

Pomeranian <3

Thats a long line of bad breeding... throwbacks like this only happen when a dog should obviously not be bred.

 

That's simply not true, any more than two normal healthy people giving birth to a child with a birth defect, or dwarfism, or gigantism is true.  

Pomeranian <3

I went to a persons so call AKC registered Poms and they looked like aliens!

 

Any purebred can be AKC registered,  That doesn't mean the dog meets the breed standard.

Pomeranian <3

m sick of people breeding their dog because they think they can not because they deserve to. Too many people breed their own dogs if you ask me (even this top show people) they have litters then toss the ones they don't want or get rid of "retired" Poms... wtf?! What ever happened to respect, love, and appreciate of the dog as a pet?!

 

I would be careful there.  We have several respected and knowledgeable breeders as long-time members of this forum.  They are not like you describe - they breed carefully and well, and do not deserve to have their efforts at improving their chosen breed insulted.  In addition, we have many more members who do not breed but who have done extensive amounts of research and in some cases moved heaven and earth for a specific dog from a specific reputable breeder, when it certainly would have been easier just to go to the nearest pet store.  Still others are actively involved with rescuing and while I wouldn't dare to speak for them I imagine that at least some are happy that there IS a distinction between bybs/puppy mills and reputable breeders, because even if they choose never to buy a puppy, at least they know that for those who do there is an option besides the ones that require those same rescuers to go onto a property and seize dozens, if not hundreds, of sick. sad dogs. 

Pomeranian <3

The german spitz and the pom are THE SAME THING. The german spitz was altered and bred down in size many many years ago. Our country just refuses to recognize the german spitz. As far as they are concerned this dog doesn't exist.

 

The pomeranian is a dwarf spitz, NOT a klein spitz, which is the "small" size, but not the smallest size. 

Pomeranian <3

 

In my opinion (as well as many reputable Pom breeders across this country) feel that the whole "pet quality" label is the reason why we still have breeding issues. Who ever decided "oh heck its okay... lets just call them pet quality" In order for a Pom to become 14lbs?! Thats a long line of bad breeding... throwbacks like this only happen when a dog should obviously not be bred.

 

I disagree with this so vehemently that I cannot say it strongly enough.  My puppy came from a litter of 10, to say that EVERY. SINGLE. PUPPY. from that litter needs to be "perfect" is ... well, extremely idealistic.  Turns out 8 were sold as "show quality" 2 were pet quality due to one potential bite (as in it's jaws didn't line up perfectly) and one with a slightly turned out elbow.  8 out of 10 is a FANTASTIC litter.  They of course sold the "pet quality" puppies as "pet quality puppies" on limited registration.  But for "reputable pom breeders" to say that "pet quality label is the reason why we still have breeding issues" is sheer ignorance.  IMNSHO the reason we have 14lbs poms, to a much greater degree is the fault of backyard breeders and puppymills.  I bet for ever 14 lbs pom you find from a reputable breeder you find 1000 from puppymills/BYB's.  Why?  Because people keep buying these dogs from them, call it what you will. But every time a person buys a dog from a BYB/Puppymill, they will produce another, simple economics.

I'm sorry, but you're treading on some toes of some people whom you will find are very passionate and very dedicated to improving their breeds.  "Throwbacks" happen.   Look at people who have ill or deformed children when the parents themselves are perfectly healthy and tell me that sometimes, genetics aren't as easily predictable as one would hope, but reputable breeders do a heck of a lot more to prevent those than the rest of the options.

You said, repeatedly, that "just because it happens often, doesn't make it right."  In response I say just because your "reputable breeders" say XY and Z doesn't make it right, I think that you should consider checking that your sources are as reputable as they claim.
 

First off I think I'm miss communicating or something because everything you are saying I agree with minus the pom & the spitz being pretty much the same dog subject.

Breeding should be extremely well thought out, planned, etc. A well thought out litter would not produce a Pomeranian like mine for example. You don't breed two Ch. dogs together and get one that looks totally different....

YES you can get "pet quality" dogs that don't exact have show quality or perfect breed standards but you don't get a TOTALLY different dog! What I am saying is my dog (for example) there is not a single thing about her that is the "breed standard" of a Pomeranian.

The way I sometimes look at it... is if you think about it, a Pomeranian is actually a designer dog in their own sense. No longer of course, but totally used to be. They were bred down from a 30lb dog then "dwarfed" into a totally different looking dog.

I looked up Spitz and I'm saying (for EXAMPLE) Kayla meets pretty much all the requirements to be THAT dog... but no where near the requirements of a Pomeranian. I also looked up how we just "throw the two dogs together in the same category" meaning that even if there WAS a german spitz, we wouldn't call it that, we'd just called it a Pomeranian and register it as a Pomeranian. That's what I mean by "just because it happens often doesn't make it right" I think THIS is wrong. So that actually does mean... just because it is registered as a Pom doesn't make it a Pom... keep in mind that if a german spitz came over here for example and had a litter WE WOULD CALL THEM POMS. I don't know WHY but that's what we do. We throw the two different dogs together. That's the "problem" I'm talking about.

Height, Width, Coat, Nose, Face, Ears, Eyes, Tail, Back Legs (of Kayla) ALL don't meet the breed standard... that doesn't " just happen sometimes" in a well thought out litter. THAT is a really really bad litter. When I talk to people who breed their Ch. Poms they dont just GET 14lb Poms or Spitz looking Poms... they get "pet quality" Poms meaning they may not win events in the ring b/c of one or two features like not a very thick coat, or ears too far apart... not a HUGE list! Pet quality doesn't mean a totally different DOG!!!

I understand the part you are talking about with human babies... I've never seen this happen with dogs before. Nor has any of my breeders told me about horrible stories such as that happening to their own dogs... so I'm not sure that its safe to say a human pregnancy and a dog pregnancy is the same thing. Maybe it does happen? I just don't know a single person who has ever witnessed it yet.

7lb dog that doesn't have a strong champion bloodlines yes maybe they will produce a baby of 9-13lbs. Yes that COULD happen. But everyone knows a 7lb Pom should not be breed. Everyone knows you shouldn't breed your dog unless you know the dog is of extreme high quality to better the breed. And even if so that's not even the only reason why you should breed (I know there are sooo many other issues and thoughts that need to go into a breeding). The "problem" is people get a Pom and think its so cute and they love it and want to breed it (the infamous back yard breeder) my dogs so nice I'll breed it and make some money off it in the meantime; or the famous "i just want one pup from the litter". THESE are the people that create dogs like Kayla for example. These are the people that create 14lb "Pomeranains". I can guarentee to you no reputable breeder I talk to has EVER had a pup from their litter be over 8lbs. Its just pure genetics, they have extremely long lines of Ch. breeding and each litter is so well planned out its crazy! THAT is who you buy dogs from... THOSE people...

Trust me I also understand the fact if we stop buying from BYB and Puppy Mills and Pet Stores thats the only way it will stop. I've spent so much of my time dedicated to educating people about this. The problem is that people don't SEE the problem. Kayla is no where near what a Pom should look like... to the point that she probably could in fact be called a different dog if we lived else where. I want people to know this because it is important. Kayla is not just "pet quality" I've seen pet quality Poms and been like "that's not show quality?!"

I love my dog to death. I rescued this pup and she is seriously my child. I love her no matter what the heck she truly is. Aside from that I know she is the protiege of horrible breeding.

Does any of that make any sense???

Okay take idk something basic like a LAB for example. Everyone has a fairly good idea about what a lab looks like right? Okay so what if the lab had flopped over ears (like an Aussie for example). And his tail curled up (like a Pom for example).... Would you call that a "pet quality" lab, or would you go "hmmm that CAN'T be pure bred...." An example like this, is the type of problem we have with Pomeranians. In the world of Pomeranian we'd just call the Lab "oh its a pure bred its just pet quality" HA! That lab is NOT "just pet quality" its deff a mix of some kind or went through a really long line of bad breeding...

Does that make sense...???

I'm seeing if I am communicating it better this time? 

Okay here is an Example between two Pet Quality Pomeranians...

I am posting two pictures: "Kayla" at 12 weeks old, and another pet quality Pomeranian puppy I knew at 12 weeks old.

See the difference for yourself....


"Kayla" 12 week old orange-sable Pomeranian


12 week old "Pet Quality" orange-sable Pomeranian


ummm HUGE difference right????

Both of these dogs are considered to be Pet Quality Pomeranians... do they look ANYTHING like each other? No way! When Kayla was a puppy people used to ask me if she was a Keeshound... I was like a what?! This got me thinking and thats when all the research began.

Now here is a picture of a 12 week old "SHOW POTENTIAL/QUALITY" orange-sable Pomeranian

First off I think I'm miss communicating or something because everything you are saying I agree with minus the pom & the spitz being pretty much the same dog subject.

Breeding should be extremely well thought out, planned, etc. A well thought out litter would not produce a Pomeranian like mine for example. You don't breed two Ch. dogs together and get one that looks totally different....

YES you can get "pet quality" dogs that don't exact have show quality or perfect breed standards but you don't get a TOTALLY different dog! What I am saying is my dog (for example) there is not a single thing about her that is the "breed standard" of a Pomeranian.

The way I sometimes look at it... is if you think about it, a Pomeranian is actually a designer dog in their own sense. No longer of course, but totally used to be. They were bred down from a 30lb dog then "dwarfed" into a totally different looking dog.

I looked up Spitz and I'm saying (for EXAMPLE) Kayla meets pretty much all the requirements to be THAT dog... but no where near the requirements of a Pomeranian. I also looked up how we just "throw the two dogs together in the same category" meaning that even if there WAS a german spitz, we wouldn't call it that, we'd just called it a Pomeranian and register it as a Pomeranian. That's what I mean by "just because it happens often doesn't make it right" I think THIS is wrong. So that actually does mean... just because it is registered as a Pom doesn't make it a Pom... keep in mind that if a german spitz came over here for example and had a litter WE WOULD CALL THEM POMS. I don't know WHY but that's what we do. We throw the two different dogs together. That's the "problem" I'm talking about.

Height, Width, Coat, Nose, Face, Ears, Eyes, Tail, Back Legs (of Kayla) ALL don't meet the breed standard... that doesn't " just happen sometimes" in a well thought out litter. THAT is a really really bad litter. When I talk to people who breed their Ch. Poms they dont just GET 14lb Poms or Spitz looking Poms... they get "pet quality" Poms meaning they may not win events in the ring b/c of one or two features like not a very thick coat, or ears too far apart... not a HUGE list! Pet quality doesn't mean a totally different DOG!!!

I understand the part you are talking about with human babies... I've never seen this happen with dogs before. Nor has any of my breeders told me about horrible stories such as that happening to their own dogs... so I'm not sure that its safe to say a human pregnancy and a dog pregnancy is the same thing. Maybe it does happen? I just don't know a single person who has ever witnessed it yet.

7lb dog that doesn't have a strong champion bloodlines yes maybe they will produce a baby of 9-13lbs. Yes that COULD happen. But everyone knows a 7lb Pom should not be breed. Everyone knows you shouldn't breed your dog unless you know the dog is of extreme high quality to better the breed. And even if so that's not even the only reason why you should breed (I know there are sooo many other issues and thoughts that need to go into a breeding). The "problem" is people get a Pom and think its so cute and they love it and want to breed it (the infamous back yard breeder) my dogs so nice I'll breed it and make some money off it in the meantime; or the famous "i just want one pup from the litter". THESE are the people that create dogs like Kayla for example. These are the people that create 14lb "Pomeranains". I can guarentee to you no reputable breeder I talk to has EVER had a pup from their litter be over 8lbs. Its just pure genetics, they have extremely long lines of Ch. breeding and each litter is so well planned out its crazy! THAT is who you buy dogs from... THOSE people...

Trust me I also understand the fact if we stop buying from BYB and Puppy Mills and Pet Stores thats the only way it will stop. I've spent so much of my time dedicated to educating people about this. The problem is that people don't SEE the problem. Kayla is no where near what a Pom should look like... to the point that she probably could in fact be called a different dog if we lived else where. I want people to know this because it is important. Kayla is not just "pet quality" I've seen pet quality Poms and been like "that's not show quality?!"

I love my dog to death. I rescued this pup and she is seriously my child. I love her no matter what the heck she truly is. Aside from that I know she is the protiege of horrible breeding.

Does any of that make any sense???

Okay take idk something basic like a LAB for example. Everyone has a fairly good idea about what a lab looks like right? Okay so what if the lab had flopped over ears (like an Aussie for example). And his tail curled up (like a Pom for example).... Would you call that a "pet quality" lab, or would you go "hmmm that CAN'T be pure bred...." An example like this, is the type of problem we have with Pomeranians. In the world of Pomeranian we'd just call the Lab "oh its a pure bred its just pet quality" HA! That lab is NOT "just pet quality" its deff a mix of some kind or went through a really long line of bad breeding...

Does that make sense...???

I'm seeing if I am communicating it better this time? 

Oh good god, please read everyone's posts, you are truely not getting it. Genetics is not A + B = either A or B, it is WAY more complex then that. You can in fact breed two Ch dogs and get dogs that stray from the breed standard, look at Ollie, many would yell freak when they say him lol. He is an especially good example since his brother already has points. Human genetics is very simmilar to canine genetics, trust me. Your dog is a non-standard pom period. You cannot change the breed because you think it looks different then a show pom. No one is saying your dog should show because it clearly couldn't. We are telling you that you don't "pick" the breed because it looks different then a picture of a show dog. Is there a problem with poor breeding practices in this country? Of course, but that is not what anyone is arguing here. You keep bring it up like we don't get it. We get it, our only point is that you CANNOT call your dog something different then what it's parents were. WOWZA. If that were true, Oliver would be a decendent of Yoda

 Here's the thing though- Kayla's not a good example of a kleinspitz, either. her muzzle is extremely coarse, her ears are too high and too close together, and her legs are too short for a klein of 12 weeks. (I don't have any pictures I have permission to post, but I think there are some up on Runfold's site.) She *is* spitzier looking, but that's just throwback breeding, just as you get shelties who are very collie looking or extremely coarse poodles. Oversized shelties are not, ever, ever, ever collies; coarse poodles are not barbets. YOUR DOG IS NOT A KLEINSPITZ. SHE IS AN OVERSIZED POMERANIAN.

 A friend of mine has a lab from (AKC) champion parents who has an extraordinarily gay tail- his tail carriage is appropriate for a malamute or a chow. :P He's 100% purebred, just has a major fault. They happen, period- genetics just isn't that simple as 'don't breed faults and faults won't happen'. Your Pom came from a breeder who was breeding for things other than the breed standard. That doesn't make her any less of a Pom. She's got a lot of faults. That's okay. Spay her and love her as a pet. She's still not a kleinspitz.

To address "Kaylacould be registerd as something else if we lived elsewhee"- well, no, she couldn't. She's have puppy papers with registration as a German Spitz - zwerg. If she went oversized, you could get papers for her forbidding you to breed her but allowing her to be exhibited in non-conformation events as a kleinspitz- but it wouldn't MAKE her one. You could also get those papers off a klein-spitz looking randombred that you got at the shelter and wanted to show in agility. (Basically, you could ILP her as one.)That's it. I could ILP my neighbor's sheltie bitch (19";) as a collie- but it wouldn't make her one.

My BIGGEST beef with people doing what you are doing is that encourages BYB Pom breeders to call their dogs kleinspitz. We don't even HAVE any kleinspitz in the US yet and if those are all kleinspitz, the health of the breed is alrady ruined.

SECONDLY, it encourages people to ILP bad poms as Kleinspitz. While my Spitz isn't eligible for AKC companion events yet, I'm going to be right pissed off if the first dog to title in all the companion events ISN'T an actual German Spitz but is a dog who is registered with a crap registry as a POM!

LASTLY, it gives people a negative impression of the breed as a whole. While your Kayla (and RH, my rally instructor's Bella, and Barbara McClausky's UDX boy- those two were rescues) are perfectly nice dogs, I also know a lot of nasty 'Big Poms'. I don't like spitz getting lumped in with them. Spitz breeders in the UK and Australia have worked VERY hard to have wonderful temperaments and prevent the breed from endingup in the hands of pupppy farmers. I want to make sure we continue that good job here in the US.

Cait
 

All of what you are saying Pwca is very valid and true. I do now believe/know Kayla is a Pomeranian... BUT....

The part of this thread I don't like is people saying "oh things like that just happen"

Pomeranian breeders would be insulted if you told them there is a possibility a dog like Kayla would come from one of their litters. They find this to be impossible since every litter is extremely well thought out and done. I know a lady in Washington who has been breed for 46 years and has never had a "pet quality" puppy look like anything else beside that picture I posted previously.

So if people are saying "She's not a German Spitz" and "It's possible for Ch. litters to have odd looking babies" Okay BOTH can't be true...

Well I know for a fact Kayla came from BYBs in Arkansas. And I do not know a single Ch. Sired litter from Pomeranian breeders that have puppies that look anywhere near Kayla. AKC maybe yes but just because a dog is AKC doesn't mean it deserves to be bread.

Kayla is spayed and more than loved. She' is my little child and I love her regardless... But so the true debate now is, can dogs LIKE Kayla "just happen" I say NO, dogs like Kayla come from bad litters and deff not long line of Ch. sired litters thats for sure.

Sera-

The breeders might be insulted, but every single one of them will admit they DO get pet quality puppies- and puppies like Kayla DO happen. The good breeders are realistic. It DOES happen, but it's super-rare, for the most part- you'll generally get one of Kayla's faults, but not all of them- but I know of champion-champion breedings with pups who look similar at 12 weeks- I'd want to see what she matures to before saying they matured the same way. 

The larger dogs seem to creep back in via brood bitches- a lot of pom breeders use larger girls of varying quality as broods without showing them.  

BTW, if you want to see some photos of a 12 week old mittelspitz, go back to the week of 12-19 on the main board here and check out Lizzie's christmas photo. :P (I just realized it doesn't say in my sig, but I have a 15 week old mittelspitz :P - thought I had changed my sig to reflect that on this board) - there's also more photos on my Flickr, although I haven't posted any in a few weeks since I've been busy getting ready for the Portland shows.

http://flickr.com/photos/dogstaracademy/         

Pwca

It DOES happen, but it's super-rare, for the most part- you'll generally get one of Kayla's faults, but not all of them

Yes exactly! If you see Kayla's parents, grandparents, etc they look just like her. That is why she looks the way she looks. Why someone would breed dogs like this ugh it just makes me mad but hey... I got my Kayla out of the deal so w/e I'm passed that now.

The pictures I posted before is a good example of a pet quality pom, one or even maybe two features that are not "show" quality. But still looks like a really good standard Pom

I think people's views are skewed of Poms because people who own dogs like Kayla BREED THEM! Its ridiculous

I'm finding this thread interesting ~ I had never heard of the German Spitz and the various varieties. I do have a question. Are the varieties ~ giant, medium, small, dwarf ~ genetically distinct in their breeding? I don't know if I'm asking that well, so let me use an example from a different breed ~ Belgian Shepherds. There are four varieties ~ the malinois, the tervuren, the groenendael, the laekenois. The AKC recognizes three of them ~ all except the laekenois, which it includes in FSS ~ as three different breeds. You can however, breed a malinois to a malinois and get a tervuren ~ or any other variety, whch is not considered bad breeding. It's not a fault in the breeding, it's a fault in AKC's classification. They are not actually four different breeds. So could you breed a pom to a pom and get a klein? Or are they truly distinct?

THANK YOU CORGIPOWER!

This is exactly what I'm talking about! Okay lets say a so called "German Spitz" came over to America and had a litter. Guess what the AKC would call the puppies? Pomeranians! Umm... that is ridiculous, don't you think?

That is why I was arguing that a lot of the Pomeranians here may not really be Pomeranians? I mean how do we really know if the AKC and all registrations here in the US only recognize the Pomeranian NOT the German Spitz??? Does that make sense???

The one thing I will still strongly stand by is I think the whole German Spitz v.s. Pomeranian mix up is more of a problem than we think... If you buy a good book on Pomeranians their whole entire history is based off the German Spitz. They ARE the German Spitz but "designed" into a different breed (now being the Pomeranian). I just don't think there should be this much variety in a breed unless something is clearly wrong. Something is clearly wrong in my opinion. We either have some serious mass production of horrible bred Pomeranians or we've got two dogs here in the states being bred together and mixed up.

There is no good excuse for such a high amount of "non-standard" Pomeranians... with THIS many faults (i.e. look at Kayla... she is so0o0o different when standing next to another Pomeranian) Don't you all agree that maybe there is a problem and its being ignored? Maybe some people can't relate to this because their own dogs breed doesn't have this many varience problems???

Pomeranian <3

This is exactly what I'm talking about! Okay lets say a so called "German Spitz" came over to America and had a litter. Guess what the AKC would call the puppies? Pomeranians! Umm... that is ridiculous, don't you think?

 

Really?

I wasn't aware that if a dog had a litter of puppies of a breed or type that the AKC didn't recognise, they could be registered as something else.  Surely the pedigree would state differently?  Could Pwca's Mittelspitz be registered as a Pomeranian?

I'm not American, I honestly don't know how it works there.   

THANK YOU CORGIPOWER!

This is exactly what I'm talking about! Okay lets say a so called "German Spitz" came over to America and had a litter. Guess what the AKC would call the puppies? Pomeranians! Umm... that is ridiculous, don't you think?

Well, AKC would only call it a Pom if the foreign registry called it a Pom. So If whatever registry it was registered under in Europe called it a Klein, AKC wouldn't call it a Pom. The FCI and The UKC and the Canadian Kennel Club recognize the four varieties of belgians as *varieties of one dog*, but they also state that breeding one variety to another variety shall not be done. So they would like for there to be distinction, even though genetically there really isn't. If two malinois breed and produce a terv, the AKC would consider a malinois with a fault of a long coat. The AKC breed standard has done more harm than good in a number of breeds.