Pomeranian V.S. German Spitz

WELL... it's official... I have a Kleinspitz (aka Pomeranian) but it really is false advertisement to promote Kayla being a Pom. In order to better this breed it needs to be known that this is not what Poms are suppose to look like...

When I get my Show Pomeranian baby I will post pictures of course so you can see the difference 

You do not have a kleinspitz. You have a pomeranian. It's extremely irresponsible to promote pomeranians as kleinspitz when they are not.

Does a poodle with an incorrect cottony coat and short legs magically become a bichon? Does a Coton de Tulaar with a straight coat become a Maltese? The breeds are related, after all. 

 Your behavior is not responsible Your dog is a cute pet Pom, not a kleinspitz. Implying that she is correct for a klein (and based on her photos, she's kleinish but still not correct) encourages people to breed incorrect Poms and call them kleins.
 

Enjoy your Pom as a pet. There's nothing wrong with that, or with owning a dog who does not meet the breed standard. But changing the breed standard or the breed to make your dog 'better' is just dumb. 

 First off... are you a Pom breeder or Spitz breeder? Probably not... so your going off of what you just read or hear say...

After speaking with MANY Pom breeders it is RUDE to promote her as a traditional Pom. It should be noted and stated that in some countries the German Klein Spitz is also considered and called the Pomeranian. Because of this there is a growing breeding problem that many hope to stop and prevent. Lots of current showers/breeders hope to start recognizing these dogs into two categories.

A true Pomeranian looks nothing like Kayla and she should not be promoted as a Pomeranian for educational and breeding purposes. She is a registered Pomeranian but traditional German Klein Spitz.

Trust me I've read tons of books... researched this a bunch. The fact is there is a PROBLEM because our country considers the German Klein Spitz and the Pomeranian to be the same thing... the fact is they look totally different. 

 I'm hoping to contribute my thoughts delicately, as this appears to be a topic that touches on sensitivity.  In regards to your OP, yes, Pomeranians are part of the backyard breeder issue (as many breeds are).  The lack of care involved with BYB does lead to multitudious imperfections within the breed.  However, there are established breeders who end out producing less-than-perfect Poms.  That's why breeders sell "pet quality" pups.  These are pups that do not meet the breed standard, and should not be shown or bred because of these imperfections.  This does not make them less of a dog, merely not the correct "face" of their particular breed.

However, I do not believe that there are tons of Kleinspitz running around in the country.  There are most definitely incorrect Poms, ones who are over-sized or have different ears.  But looking different than the breed standard does not make a Klein for me.  As an example, you would not call an oversized Beagle a Foxhound.  They are two separate breeds, related yes, but two different breeds.  As such, the dog world has recognized the difference between the Klein and the Pom (and the Mittle and Gross).  While only a few registries recognize the different varieties, that does not mean they are not separate because the AKC does not say it is so.  I definitely agree that many pet-quality Poms DO resemble Kleins.  This stands to reason, as all 5 varieties of German Spitz are related.  But the Klein is an established breed in other countries.  The Klein has their own breed standard, and I feel that the only true Kleins in the US would be ones who were brought overseas.  Do I think that there are lots of Poms who could be recognized as Kleins in other countries?  Yes, definitely.  But this is because their Pomeranian "imperfections" resemble the selected qualities of the Klein. 

To take pet-quality Poms and deem them Kleins seems...wrong in some way that I can't accurately describe.  Until a solid Kleinspitz line imports to the US and breeds true here, I just don't think that we should take incorrect Poms and make them our own version of the Kleinspitz.  As the saying goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it! There's five recognized varieties for a reason.  They're all different, no matter what variations might occur in the pet-quality offspring.

I do agree that having Kayla as the poster Pom for your website is not the best idea.  Your website is well-intended, and in order to reflect the most accurate information, you should definitely utilize pictures of Poms who are recognized for their conformation.  Kayla would be a lovely poster Pom for a section on pet-quality Poms.  And I do happen to agree with PWCA on the fact that you should probably not be calling Kayla a Klein.  I could definitely see unethical breeders calling their BYB Poms "Kleinspitz" in order to achieve a higher dollar.  Your stance on BYB tells me that you would not want to see this catch on.  Since you're so passionate about educating the difference about Kleins and Poms, perhaps you can include a section on your website about the differences in the varieties, and how Pomeranians are the only recognized variety in the US right now.  I would love to see true Kleinspitz and German Spitz in this country eventually, as they're beautiful dogs.

Just my proverbial two cents.  Hope it all made sense.  

 Thanks for the awesome advice! Yeah the site has a LONG way to go but I am working with a breeder right now in Washington to come up with a page on the "difference" between these two dogs and why some Poms look the way they do. *hugs* why can't we just have a much of HONORS running around!! haha

There are currently no kleinspitz in the US that I am aware of. There are non registered with AKC's FSS that we know of, although AKC is not tracking the varieties separately, unfortunately. There is a lady with a single one in Canada and there were previously some brought in by breeders in the 80s but they were bred to Poms and registered here as Poms.

 In the German standard (the FCI standard) the Pom is the Zwerg (dwarf) spitz- not the klein.

 

ottoluv

I have to say I'm a little confused by this thread. Are you saying that since your pom doesn't fit the breed standard it's not a pom? That doesn't make any sense, my chi's don't fit the breed standard and they are definately still chi's. Otto looks more like a rat terrier in someways and he is still a chi. What did the breeder tell you when you took your dog home?

Right now I'm talking to Showers/Breeders of Pomeranians all across this country. A standard/show Pom looks NOTHING like "Kayla" honestly I swear they are two totally different dogs! Her facial features, fur/coat, etc. I asked this question to many of the breeders as well as did a lot of research.

To really know the Pomeranian you really have to know the history... they first were a wild Wolf Spitz. Over the years it became a domesticated dog called the German Spitz. They began to breed those dogs down in size creating different Spitz classes: Large (Gross), Medium (Mittle), Small (Klein). Queen Charlotte, who was the German wife of King George II, brought a pair of klein spitz to Britain in 1767. She called them "Pomeranians" in reference to the old German/Poland region Pomerania. Years and years later the dog changed drastically and was officially a different dog all together being call a Pomeranian officially recognized by every breeding club.

Since breeding of the Pomeranian is far from under control you get this wide variety of colors, shapes, sizes... it really is pure madness. Some please call it "the three faces of Poms." Others are appalled and find it ignorant and rude to even consider a dog a Pomeranian if it looks nothing like requirements. The fact here... is they are two totally different dogs being bred together and getting mixed up. The problem is outside of German we just call them all "Pomeranians" well they aren't! I know a lady with 25lb "pomeranians"...

I am in agreement with the breeders in seperating these dogs back into two classes again! If you look up pictures of a Klein Spitz & then see Kayla in real life you'd go "holy crap... that looks exactly like her" I have book call "Pomeranian" A Kennel Club Book, Comprehensive Guide to Owning and Caring for your Dog; it has two pictures of a Klein Spitz that look EXACTLY like my dog to a tea when her hair grows out... she has the same exact coat, ears, and nose...

So what do you think? I say... she really truly is a German (Klein/Small) Spitz... 

Pwca

There are currently no kleinspitz in the US that I am aware of. There are non registered with AKC's FSS that we know of, although AKC is not tracking the varieties separately, unfortunately. There is a lady with a single one in Canada and there were previously some brought in by breeders in the 80s but they were bred to Poms and registered here as Poms.

 In the German standard (the FCI standard) the Pom is the Zwerg (dwarf) spitz- not the klein.

 

This is exactly correct... and this is causing a HUGE breeding problem...

I personally think (as well do many others) there are PLENTY of Zwergspitz/German Spitz (Small) here in the US... we just refuse to call them that! Instead we have all these weird looking "Poms" do you know what I mean? 

Just to point out, just because the dog doesn't match the breed standard doesn't mean it's not that breed.  For example, as Ottoluv said, her chi's aren't in the standard, but they are still chihuahuas. Isn't Ollie registered with the AKC, Kelly? 

What I'm trying to say is just because she looks like X-breed doesn't make it so, regardless of what some people say.  Just because some don't want to recognize ill-bred dogs as part of their breed... they still are. Honestly it happens in EVERY breed.  We all have a separation and rift (in the breeds, usually recognized by the AKC) and it's often due to the standard and it's somewhat subjective nature.  Even in weimaraners, which should be very simple the 'type' ranges greatly, to the point that sometimes the only thing that keeps them within the same breed is the silvery/gray coat, I've seen some that greatly resemble greyhounds and some that look like great danes... they are still weimaraners.  :)

So, since you are asking, I'm going to say, she's a pom :) 

One real JERK though that contacted me had the nerve to say Kayla was a disgrace. I wanted to be like "listen bud... I guarantee her temperament is a million times better than your little yappers!" But I kept my mouth shut...

I know Kayla is no poster child for the website but jesus christ she's not a disgrace! She is actually a pure/great example of why we have a breeding problem! 

As yu stated, your dog doesn't resemble a show Pom, but that doesn't make her a different breed.  If she's APRI registered, I assume it was a backyard breeder?  The odds of such a person having imported a German Spitz to integrate it into their breeding program, and then deciding to label it a Pom is not likely. The world is full of registered, but pet quality, labs that look like mixes. Pet Rotties with white markings, oversized Chis, Yorkies, Shih Tzus, etc.  In fact, if you look at the various pet quality yorkies, Chis and Shih Tzus, even their facial expressions can be vasty different than their show counterparts. Same with Rotties. In my area there's a huge difference in build and head shape. And an oversized yorkie doesn't make them a Silky.

  I know a person who recently lost their last Pom at nearly 15 years. Years ago they'd bred Poms, showing many of their dogs.  His last Pom was oversized at 14 lbs, with a longer face than the show quality dogs do.  Other littermates were standard sized and went on to show in conformation in their younger days. It didn't make his dog less a Pom, it made him a pet quality one.