"Working Bred" Dogs as Pets

Well, you sure did do my work for me there in describing my experiences with my own working bred "pet" dog! Thanks!

 He's a well bred dog who went stray with no other form of ID than the tattoos of his breeder's initials and a serial number--not enough for a busy urban shelter to go on--and I adopted him. And yes, I have caught hell for having him from people who are in to coonhunting, because I don't hunt. But damn if he isn't just a fantastic pet because the traits that make him such a great working dog translate extremely well into being a great pet dog. He's steady, even-tempered, good natured but not hyper or over-exuberant. he's very healthy, and has sound structure. He's not reactive or aggressive, he's not anxious or fearful. He's at the top of his class in agility and was the only dog to pass the CGC test in his level 2 obedience class.

His only major foible is he hates riding in the car, which is kind of a pain right now since I'm checking in from on the road on the way to Vermont for our vacation. But other than that he's a dream. And he's very happy just being a pet.

I have a "working bred" dog as a pet.  She is a 4 year old German Shepherd from pure German working lines.  She has several great/famous working German Shepherds in her pedigree.  However, at least with GSDs "working" does not mean that these dogs are more motivated, more intense, and more drive-y than the other types of shepherds (highlines/show lines, American show lines, DDR, Czech....).  Based on what I've been learning recently, the "working" west German Shepherd is more of a description of structure/conformation than the dog's temperament.  ALL German Shepherds should have a working temperament and natural drive, that's just a given with the breed.  The "working" west German Shepherd is typically a bit smaller, has a more level top line ("butt high";), etc.  My dog would never get anywhere in AKC shows or GSD Sieger shows b/c she doesn't fit the current conformation fads.  However, she has great hips and her structure allows her to move with balance and be on the run ALL day long.  On the GSD forum, someone recently posted these pages.  I think even non-GSD people can see the differences in the structure of these dogs:

Famous High Line Dogs

Famous Working Line Dogs

Famous AKC Show Line Dogs

Another mark of a German Shepherd is their versatility and velcro-ness.  I don't care what SchH or herding titles a GSD has if at the end of the day it cannot retire to the home and be a biddable family dog inside the house, then it's not a GSD I would want.  These are not wolves, they are domesticated dogs, bred for companionship and family life as much as drive and herding instinct.  This is as much a part of their standard as is their desire to work.
 

I don't really understand the "you shouldn't have a working dog" position b/c....isn't EVERY dog a working dog?  What breed does NOT have a working task it was originally bred for?  How many Jack Russel owners train their dogs to catch rodents and enter Earth Dog trials?  How many Labrador owners have their dogs working with them in the field and retrieving game birds from half-frozen marshes?  I guess what bugs me about that attitude is that it's often directed at people who own supposedly more "intense" breeds like Dobes, GSDs, some of the hounds and gun dogs, when in reality, ALL dogs (save for a few toy breeds) have some serious working ability. 

Brookcove-

Interesting topic.  I think I'm seeing a lack of balance in some of the agility bc's out there?  They seem to have drivedrivedrive, but no rest.  I wonder how those dogs would do on a working farm.  Would they learn their balance, or would they just burn out really quickly? 

I must admit, having basenjis, it's not something I think about much.  I've never met a basenji that wouldn't give chase.  And it's nice to be in a breed that has so many dual champions.  And that looks like the dogs in their native land. 

I forgot to say that I recently read an Ed Frawley article on the breeding program of Karl Fuller/Kirschental.  He mentions how "drive" is not, and should not be synonymous with "tough" and that the soft dogs (often thought of as the GSD that won't cut it for SchH or breeding and should be retired to pet/family homes) were often the best herders.  Excerpt:

In October of 1988 I spend a week in Germany filming a video on training Sheep Herding dogs with Karl and Marion Fuller (Kirschental Kennels).

Karl is ONE OF if not THE premier German shepherd breeder in the world. Over the years he has produced 6 VA dogs, won the HGH championship 8 times with 7 different dogs and has produced 2 males that sired bundessiegers. No one has ever done this.

In an effort to try and understand his method of breeding, we spent a lot of time talking about his bloodlines and how he has accomplished what he has. Karl is a full time shepherd. He spends his days in the fields with his 800 sheep and his dogs. It's not unusually to move the flock into a field and leave it this for over and hour before moving on to other pasture - so there is a lot of time to study your dogs movement and drive - if that's where your interest lies.

Karl has been breeding shepherds since the 1950's. His formula, from the beginning, on selecting breeding partners has been to choose good working blood and cross it with the type of confirmation dog he likes.

Although there were earlier Kirschental dogs, one of his foundation bitches (from the mid 1950's) was a dog named Blanka Mummelsee. Blanka brought working ability into his line - she was a HGH *** that worked until she was 14 years old. Blanka was not kored - but her entire bloodline came from sheep herding stock.

An interesting thing that Karl mentioned about Blanka (and several of his later HGH bitches) was that they were not very tough dogs, but they were excellent herding dogs. As time passes and I learn to appreciate the HGH, I see herding dogs that have a tremendous amount of drive to go out and do this work but they are a little handler soft and not tough schutzhund dogs.

Most schutzhund people would classify these dogs as having " *** temperament"; it was not to long ago that I would have agreed with them. The fact is that these dogs bring a "working drive" into a bloodline - what they lack in hardness and courage they compensate for in their drive to go and go and go. They have twice the drive to work that most schutzhund dogs do.

So, if a sound working dog lacks toughness and is "soft", who's to say that these dogs don't also make for EXCELLENT family companions that can easily and quite happily co-habituate with humans in the home?  I guess for me it begs the question, what IS "work"?  Herding?  Schutzhund?  Both?  Neither?

Again, I fail to see work and companionship as mutually exclusive.
 

I think successfully having a working dog as a pet completely depends on the individual dog, just like nutrition or training techniques. You can't make a blanket statement like a working breed will never be "truly happy" in a family lifestyle.

Two examples.

My parents have an ABC working stock border collie with impressive local and international bloodlines. She came from an actual farm where all the dogs had "jobs", and many of her siblings went to working and competitive herding families. She adapted quite happily to a normal suburban lifestyle. Even though she does not have a "job" she never seems to be depressed or "missing out" on anything.

However, I have a "cur-type" dog, and let me tell you...sometimes I do wonder if she would be better off as a hunting dog. Her energy is up the walls. She needs 4-5 miles of brisk walking/running a day minimum. Usually we hit around 5-6, plus tugowar and fetch playtime. I really have to work to keep her from becoming bored/frustrated. I guess it is good for me also though - keep me active ;)

 Yes, possibly I should have left curs out of the equation - I understand they are deliberately bred for over the top drive, however.  You have to look at how the dogs are managed when "off duty" or between working sessions.  Does the handler have to keep them on leash or chained or boxed all the time?  If yes, then that's a specialized dog bred to be over the top.

There's some trial bred Border Collies that are like that, too.  Sport lines tend to favor these dogs, then concentrate the "no impulse control" even more in their lines. 

I had a friend explain it to me once.  She wanted a dog she had to say, "stop, stop, stop" to, not ever, "GO"  She wanted her dogs to react and do things because they'd been conditioned to do them, not because they were thinking about them.  That's how the fastest dogs get around the course.  And there's some top trialers that are like that, too - so the genetics for this remain even in the working lines. 

But it's neither normal, nor something that is conducive to true working conditions.

A working dog should be attentive without needing that drilled into them (or shocked into them), biddable (within reason considering the breed and function - biddable for a terrier is something very different from a biddable herding dog!!), adaptable, and patient.

This doesn't mean they make the best companion dogs or that everyone should have a working bred dog for a companion.  Far from it.  This is just to say that not every working bred dog HAS to work. 

brookcove

IMO there is no reason to get a working line of ANY BREED if its just going to be a pet that goes on hikes or romps in the woods... 

 I can both agree and disagree with this statement. Someone who intends to be very casual in their ownership of a dog, who is looking for a dog to lay around the fire at home and go for walks daily is perhaps best not getting a working line although if they are willing and really want one it can work out just fine. It will just require more effort on their part.

 I have a Dogo Argentino from very high drive working parents, all of the dogs before him were hard hunting dogs, his father was imported from argentino where they really do not even have these dogs as pets anywhere, all are expected to hunt. He has a high prey drive and a high level of confidence (taking down a large boar requires much confidence) and because of that he does need to stay busy, his mind must be challenged as well as his phsyical body and I would not recommend a dog like him for just anyone. But if someone is willing to put in the time and effort to train, and exersise such a dog then it can work, but for the casual owner who maybe does not know much about dogs, and does not train them but just wants something to go on hikes and walks then it could very well be a mistake.

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Wouldn't that depend on the breed?  Afterall, isn't that just the sort of home that is wanted for retired greyhounds?  (as long as said dog is kept on leash on thos hikes)

The last 2 dogs that I have owned have come from the highline, with some working thrown in. They have some common relatives in fact very close in line, which is good considering that there is a 11 year difference in age.

The thing is that my dogs are pets, I do not compete, I did toy with the idea of herding but just could not afford to get involved in it as of yet. I know enough to keep my dog "busy", outside of a 5lb bag of flour and one shoe Kord has destroyed nothing, Babe ate some drywall, but she too never destroyed anything. To me there is no reason why a working bred dog cannot be a house dog.

I love the working bred dogs, I love the drive, the intelligence, the shear joy they take in doing something they love, and that can be anything from herding sheep, chasing down criminals or chasing the frisbee through the yard.

But...

If you get a dog and do not research the background on the bred I can see where issue's would and can be a problem. If you have a high drive dog and don't channel it, well that is when your couch become a chew toy.

And on that note, I am looking into that german ball game, where the dogs herd the balls into the goals, looks fun and I think Kord would love it. Time to buy some big bouncy balls that are GSD proof!

agilebasenji

Wouldn't that depend on the breed?  Afterall, isn't that just the sort of home that is wanted for retired greyhounds?  (as long as said dog is kept on leash on thos hikes)

I suppose, I do not know much about greyhounds, most of my experience has been with hunting lines or guardian types.

 The breed I have now I would not recomend for this activity

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Let me know where you find them - the malingator would LOVELOVELOVE this game.

I think the kind of "work" has something to do with it.  I must admit that earlier comments about causual pet homes for working dogs is a point that must be considered.  Doing lots of public obedience, I assure you the "common" pet home is not equipped for a dog from working lines unless it has already been trained and is an older dog looking for a retirement home.

 Most working line malinois have no business in a common pet home.  Yes the dogs need a high degree of biddability, however most common pet homes have no idea to how to channel the drive and use the biddibility.  I have little or no problem with working line dogs going to pet homes where dogs are active and have a job, which implies the people are pretty dog savy to begin with.  A working (read that protection lines) dog, especially a malinois, is not for the new to the breed unless those folks are well mentored and hooked up with training from day one.

Becca, you and I have sort of touched on this subject before with regards to LGD's....which would not necessarily be the greatest "pet dog" for all owners (what breed is?) but that is definitely possible to have as a pet for someone with sufficient dedication to their needs.  I admit to never having really thought about it from the balance/temperament angle, although that really makes so much sense. 

I for one would like to see more of a movement towards "unification" of the divisions that occur in some breeds.  Labs are a prime example of the working lines being SO different from show lines, with the show lines often unable to do the job that labs were originally bred to do, and honestly I think that's sad.  I'm the first to believe that there is some call for variation amongst dogs within a breed - some being more drivey than others may indeed be necessary - but in my ideal world every dog bred would have the physical capability, structure and temperament to do the breed's intended work, even if the majority of those dogs wind up as pets.

In order for a dog to be a working animal, it has to be trainable to a great degree, right?  And trainability is an advantage for every owner even if the furthest they go is making sure Fido can sit on command. 

Which leads me to a question, possibly for another thread but I'll pose it here:

If more pet dogs in the general population were from good working lines, with all of the stable temperaments, soundness and trainability that that entailed - would we have less of a "pet dumping" problem with regards to people getting rid of that dog who "just won't listen" or who has "too many health issues" - or have those always *just* been excuses?
 

agilebasenji

Brookcove-

Interesting topic.  I think I'm seeing a lack of balance in some of the agility bc's out there?  They seem to have drivedrivedrive, but no rest.  I wonder how those dogs would do on a working farm.  Would they learn their balance, or would they just burn out really quickly? 

 

I must admit, having basenjis, it's not something I think about much.  I've never met a basenji that wouldn't give chase.  And it's nice to be in a breed that has so many dual champions.  And that looks like the dogs in their native land. 

It's funny you say this, we actually got Misty from a farm and the farmer had oh, about 10 or so of these dogs.  We didn't see them working at the time we went to pick out Misty, but they we're all playing with each other.  It looked like they were playing hide n' seek.  It was so adorable.  I don't think they'd burn out, I think they would keep going like an energized bunny.  I've been taking Misty outside to play frisbee (throwing short distance) and she'll look so tired, that I'll say "ok, let's go get a drink and relax", and when I start heading for the door, she picks up one of the frisbees and comes to me.  It's like, "dog, you're beat, you're tongue won't even stay in your mouth".  But I think she'd keep going until she passed out!  LOL