"Working Bred" Dogs as Pets

I dont think well bred, healthy, working line dogs available to the basic pet home would have any impact on owner turn ins.  Actually I think they might even go up.  In many cases, a working line dog is too much for the typical dual income families (with or without kids).  The single income families depending on the employment, would likely not have the resources to purchase such a dog in the beginning.

brookcove

 touring the neighborhood and checking for evildoers

This cracked me up.  Sasha is a mutt, but she absolutely believes that her nightly neighborhood patrol is a Very Important Job.   

mrv

I dont think well bred, healthy, working line dogs available to the basic pet home would have any impact on owner turn ins.  Actually I think they might even go up.  In many cases, a working line dog is too much for the typical dual income families (with or without kids).  The single income families depending on the employment, would likely not have the resources to purchase such a dog in the beginning.

I agree mrv.

 Most cases of turn ins are not due to the stupidity or untrainablility of the dog (I think most who foster would agree that it is seldom you get a dog that nothing can be done with it) but more because of the stupidity and untrainability of the person. Having a high drive dog would most likely compound the problem versus solving it.

 When I was doing a lot of BC rescue, the vast majority of our turn-ins came from people who marketed their dogs specifically for the pet homes.  The problem lies in a lack of communication on the part of the breeder of what their dogs need, and also of course a lack of dedication to ensuring their dogs go into appropriate homes.

What mrv says is absolutely true.  I'm not in any way saying that our working bred dogs are perfect for any old person who just wants a chum to sit and watch tv with them.  But working bred dogs DO make excellent companions even outside the working context, for people who understand the particular breed and are committed to meeting their needs.  And sometimes those needs are surprisingly simple.

Kate, I've left your complete post behind on the previous page and can't see exactly what you were saying about LGDs as pets.  But yes, most LGDs fit into the family home with no problem, assuming they are prepared for what they bring - the good and the not-so-good.  What makes a working bred dog wonderful is that they have the complete package - LGDs are naturally not obedient, but a working bred dog comes with such a strong desire to be with their "family" and understand their environment, that you can use these characteristics to train them. 

I've tried to train Pyrs that had some of the pieces missing - it was like knocking my head on a sack of rocks.  All the breed's stubbornness, but no curiosity or loyalty.  That left basically nothing to work with.  Even O/C has little use - an LGD is a creature of habit and would rather die of starvation than invent a new behavior to get a little treat, unless you acclimate them to the notion from birth.

 

There are a lot of interesting points in this discussion. And I think a lot of it does come down to how people are breeding dogs these days, and what they are looking for. There are many types of "working" homes these days for any breed of dog. Take the Border Collie - there are breeders selectively breeding for herding dogs, breeders selectively breeding for the next flyball dog, the next agility dog, the next show dog. All of these types of breeders often strive for something a little bit different than the next, and this leads to the diversity we see within breeds today.

When we bred Labs 15 years ago, we didn't breed _____ dogs. We bred dogs. Period. Dogs that met what we felt was the "true" Labrador, which is a versatile animal that is adaptable to most any situation. These dogs made amazing:
- Hunting dogs
- Conformation show dogs
- Therapy Dogs
- Obedience dogs
- Special needs dogs
- Professional couch potatoes and snugglers
- And some did many of the above.

It almost amazes me to see such vast differences within a breed, depending on the breeder. I see now Labs that couldn't retrieve a dead bird if it struck it in the head. I also see amazing hunting dogs that can't lie still for an hour at a time unless it's bedtime. Neither of these extremes is what a 'true' dog is to me.

We have carried that over to our Mini Schnauzers that we raise now. Our "ideal" Mini is a dog that is versatile, that can do well in many endeavours, whether that be a show dog, a working dog, or a family pet that doesn't do much of anything except be loved. It's finding that fine line combination of drive, stability, appearance, and temperament. So to that extent we have had show dogs, obedience dogs, rally (soon to be anyhow!) dogs, agility dogs, therapy dogs, tracking dogs (still in progress), and just recently a dog that assists children in learning to read (I forget the technical term for these animals). All of these dogs also make ideal family pets and would be as content just BEING pets if that was the case.

I am a person who ultimately believes in that "happy" medium. I don't like either extreme. I don't believe in breeding out a dog's instincts or natural behaviours (IF those behaviours are adaptive - I'm not against breeding out, for instance, the triggers for dog aggression in many bully breeds, since there is no use for dog fighting/bull baiting, etc any longer). I also don't believe in breeding "just" for working ability and totally ignoring the other aspect of what the breed represents - how it looks. Whether or not some agree, a huge part of what makes breeds "breeds" is NOT the working ability but the outward appearance. To say "That's a Border Collie" or "That's a GSD" requires some sort of standard to compare to and adhere to, IMO. Otherwise you'd just say you have "herding dogs" or "retrievers", there would be types and not breeds. And of course for me, beyond anything else in breeding, health is of utmost importance. Genetic health is the only thing that will keep dogs going in the future, and any breeder who ignores the importance of working with healthy stock, no matter the fame or fortune or working ability, has no right reproducing animals. Period.

 Breeding a Border Collie exclusively for the work for which it was intended, IS breeding for the "whole Border Collie."  That's the dog that was used, as you say, for obedience, working a vast variety of livestock and farm situations, and made a great companion for active owners.

There's never been an appearance standard for the working BC [edited to add: until recently - 1985 for the UK and 1996 for the US, and Canada's Kennel Club is still pushing for one against the wishes of the Canadian BC Association] and yet most people have no problem identifying one, especially while working.

Ditto the working Maremma Sheepdog - you can import these from 15 different villages all over Italy and they look the same because their function dictates their appearance.

In other words, most closed pools working dogs end up having a similar appearance not because it matters, but because of founder effect.  The lines that produce the functions we need, tend to pass on their looks as well.

Working dogs don't make good companions because they are bred to "do it all," but because work itself tends to favor dogs that are well-rounded in temperament and abilities. 

Kim, I absolutely agree, especially with regards to labs.  There is SUCH division in the breed generally now, between what is a show dog and what is a working dog.  IMHO, a dog that is a good example of it's breed - as in, a show dog - is only a good example if it is able to do the intended job of the breed.

Oh, and I PM'd you. :)

Edit: Becca - Maremmas....*swooooooon* 

Oh, I didn't mean that all breeds of dogs had to be able to do it all. The two breeds I've been involved with just happened to be breeds that were known for versatility in many areas. Now if I had have said my Labs were herding and my Mini's were retrieving game, I'd think something was up! (Or, I just had strange interests...you decide...haha).

 My point was, whether you think it's right or not, there ARE breeders striving for different things even within your BC breed. There are many BC's that have little to no herding ability in areas more than just conformation. And there are Border Collies that have been bred for herding, that would not make suitable family animal for anybody but people doing herding. And then there are the dogs in the middle, that do both well. And actually there are many dogs that people have called BC's that look like nothing more than bi-colored mixes to me (a lot of the herding/ranch dogs), that would be a combination of any dozen breeds or so.  Besides the fact that it herds well, is black and white (as an example), some dogs don't look at all like BC's. So it's not always all that obvious. Now, for those people who are using these dogs, I know they don't care what the dog "looks" like and that's fine, for them. But not for everybody. And unfortunately, the BC that actually does as it was bred to do (and I mean REALLY does it, as there are lots of dogs in herding trials that you wouldn't call real BC's either) is a minority compared to the number of people who like BC's and wish to keep/raise them. So that's why other breeders have cropped up breeding for other things - show/herding BC's, herding BC's that don't match the appearance of the "ranch" BC, agility BC's, flyball BC's, and then some strictly "show" BC's. Etc.

I am sort of getting the impression, reading this thread, that when people say "working dog" they are sort of only thinking about either herding or protection/bite work. There's a lot more work than just that, and a lot of work that does not require that a dog be completely out of their head with the drive 24/7 in order to do the work. Some working bred dogs do have an off-switch for their drive.

houndlove

I am sort of getting the impression, reading this thread, that when people say "working dog" they are sort of only thinking about either herding or protection/bite work. There's a lot more work than just that, and a lot of work that does not require that a dog be completely out of their head with the drive 24/7 in order to do the work. Some working bred dogs do have an off-switch for their drive.

Exactly!  And that's why I don't get the "omg, you have a German Shepherd for a PET?!?!" attitude, b/c (excluding a few toy breeds) ALL dogs were bred to WORK.  Why doesn't the same stigma apply to everyone that owns a lab or golden retriever (two most popular dogs in my locale)?  I only know one lab/golden owner that actually bird hunts his dog. 

Actually, I think they are referring to dogs who work (at least I am).  There are plenty of working goldens (field dogs and high level obedience lines) that are WAY beyond the typical pet owner.   I do not think it matters  what the job is, as long as it requires physical stamina and mental alertness.  Those kinds of qualities specifically selected for in breeding programs are not the type of dogs who typically do well in the average companion home (read that no real training beyond some basic manners, no competition or competition level exercise).

Well, any dog that is a born athlete is going to probably be too much for the average pet home, just on an exercise level.  I think a lot of the problems with the average pet home are also problems for non-working-bred dogs too, it's not a matter of working vs. non-working, it's a matter of the average modern American home not being all that conducive to keeping a dog of any kind happy unless a good bit of extra effort is put out. But if you're going to put the extra effort into keeping a pet quality dog happy and healthy, it's not that much more of a stretch to keep many working-bred dogs happy as well.

I just wanted to throw my perspective in because I do have a working-bred dog who I don't work, who actually makes for a fantastic pet. He's not a herder or a gun dog or a protection dog, but before we adopted him he was 100% a working dog and lacked the "skills" of a pet dog. He has a few special needs that any dog of his breed would have, but beyond that I would say that he takes very little extra effort beyond what a pet quality dog would require to be happy. He has made the adjustment to pet dog with real gusto and embraces his new role with the same dedication that he previously gave to being a coon hunter. Houndsmen might say I've "ruined" this dog by making him a pet but if you were to ask Marlowe, I think you'd find that he'd tell you pretty unequivocally which lifestyle he prefers. After all, it's not really up to us to say what any individual dog would prefer doing or not doing. It's up to the dogs themselves and they can tell you pretty loud and clear if you're willing to listen for a moment. Some working-bred dogs will tell you that they are only happy specifically doing what they were bred for, some will tell you that they could pretty much go either way and agility is a pretty good substitute for ratting or herding, and Marlowe would tell you that he's done a lot of research and decided that running around after coon in the middle of the night in the rain is a small price to pay in exchange for couches and raw chicken wings.

There's a pretty huge spectrum of behaviors and drives under the large umbrella of "working-lines dogs". I don't think you can make a blanket statement that "all working-bred dogs are like this, or like that".

 That is EXACTLY my point, Cressida!  Working environments create variety and a broad spectrum of temperaments and needs - they are standardized by the jobs they needs to do to a certain point, but the biggest thing that drives how lines of working dogs are shaped, is the preferences and needs of their working partners!

I was thinking of all types of work, from hunting to herding, SAR to assistance dogs, personal protection to public safety. 

I don't personally count dog sports as work per se in this particular context because sports are designed for the dogs, not the other way around.  Sports are, of course, "work" for any dog/human team that puts the time and effort into training, but dogs that do sports are not de facto working dogs.  I hope that makes sense.



 

 I don't know if this is true for all breeds. I have to say that a working kelpie in a backyard has never struck me as a particularly happy dog. Not when compared to a working kelpie with a flock of sheep to mind. I have seen one happy urban kelpie, but only one, and her happiness seemed to be related to the amount of free running she was allowed to do.

 That's an extremely good point.  These dogs do have certain needs - one must be prepared to fulfill them in some way if one insists on making a working bred dog a member of the family. "In the backyard" is not the ideal place for a working dog - but it doesn't mean that there's a need for working breeds to be bred for that context, to make fine active companions and partners in sports.

Cressida's hound is a great example.  People who come from a hunting perspective are a bit horrified at the idea of a working dog in her situation, but they fail to take into account that she's meeting the dog's primary drives - surprisingly, it's not prey drive that's most important, but pack drive.  She provides her dogs "jobs" to do, which satisfies their need to  work as a team in some context.  Her dogs are not just "in the backyard", but have a role in the home and know it very well.

Another friend has an extremely well-bred Border Collie and (I've mentioned him before, I'm sure) really did little with the dog other than have him at his side all the time.  It wasn't until the dog was about six or seven that friends convinced him to train him for the usual BC outlets - flyball, disc dog, hobby herding.  The dog was really good, too, but he was perfectly happy just being this guy's buddy and learning silly tricks like fetching beer from the fridge and finding hidden money and selecting it by denomination.