Color Disqualifications

ORIGINAL: brookcove

ColleenC, the point of conformation is conformation, not variety, and the type they are selecting for overall is the non-working variety because it's been bred to win in show for fifty years now, overseas. That's just the nature of the beast. Any variety you see now is actually very subtle compared to the true depth of variety in the breed as a whole. Also, it will eventually disappear - it is already virtually non-existent at the really prestigious shows.

I suspect you didn't see any dogs that looked like these in the breed ring, and certainly none like these were put up! Not only are these purebred, but they are extremely well-bred, the sire of the three black and white being the current National Cattle Trial Champion and the tri color being very closely related.



I lurk on AKC lists and the two major factions represented by "Australian show type" and " American sport type" (it is NOT working type) are only united on one point: their mutual distrust of those of us who refuse to register AKC and subject our dogs to their notion of what a working dog should be. If it were up to them, the four very talented dogs represented up above would be a thing of the past.

I didn't mean to say that all of the BCs there were working type at all.  But, they were closer to that than I have seen in most shows.  There was a taller one like the tall dog in the picture, and a little one that was so homely looking compared to the rest.  I talked to her owner and she used her dog on her ranch for herding.  That dog did win her class one of the days I was there.  It seems in this area a few of the people with working dogs are putting them in the conformation ring.  They don't always win, but they are out there and I see more of them.  I have a close friend who has sheep, and of course BCs.  She doesn't show hers, but they are all smooth.  Maybe when I said variety, it came out wrong.  I just wanted to point out that I am now seeing some dogs that look NOTHING like the Australian show type that is so common.  I don't know if it is just this area or what, but its interesting to see the different types of BCs.
That is a cute picture by the way.  The tri looks like shes ready to get into trouble!  And the tall one looks so proud!

Awesome BC picture! It's refreshing to see a BC that isn't all coat.

We had a purebred BC in the shelter for a couple of weeks.  She was an awesome girl!  She went with someone who truly appreciates a great BC!

Lark, the tri, actually isn't nearly as big a mischief maker as her rough coated sister there with the ticking. Lark is probably a scant 17" tall and Phoebe probably is a bit short of the 18" standard mark also. Obviously Lark hasn't a shot in heck of winning anything in a show ring and her sister would most likely be laughed out right along with her with those ears and that ticking. I knew someone who raged for a while against the system, with an oddly-marked tri with a lot of ticking, and finally she got a standard pup from one of the established show kennels.

I don't know where you are and show, but overall it's the show type that still dominates, and will dominate. A show breed can't have a completely random appearance - there's Group and Best in Show status to think of also. The powerhouse kennels in the breed who are after those attainments want a dog that will win over poodles and German Shepherds. They can't do that with a higgly-piggly anything goes breed.

When the Border Collie is recognized anywhere as a bench breed, aberrant colors, size differences, shapes, and of course coat types are weeded out as quickly as possible. Look up the Kennel Club version of the Border Collie, where it has only been showing for 20ish years. Black and white, rough coats, cutesy ears and doll faces, blocky bodies. A Kennel Club Border Collie can only be a full champion if it proves it's ability to do some simple herding tasks. No Show Champion has been able to perform those requirements for a few generations now. Now they are demanding that the tests be "dumbed down", that it's all a big conspiracy to make the show dogs look bad.

Don't tell me this kind of politics doesn't affect a breed, especially a small one, because I know it does. It's already been happening since the Border Collie was recognized.

We are not imagining this. Culling out characteristics that have nothing to do with function has a direct impact on working ability within the breed.

I don't think, personally, that Colleen was "telling you" anything about politics, or your breed, but just sharing an experience at a show. I think the post in response is a bit tense IMO. I understand this topic riles BC folks, and maybe I even understand the "rilement" lol...I just didn't read anything in Colleen's posts to deserve such a heated reply.
 
eta: word I forgot

I apologize. Not one of my better thought out posts.

It does get tiresome to be told when this comes up, that "Oh no, you BC people are just over reacting. See, I was at a show and I saw a red dog/dog with erect ears/dog that had a little bit less coat" etc.

The point isn't the dogs that are allowed within the standard or passable at a show. It's concern over culling the ones outside the standard that has been imposed, and the ones outside the "norm" that showing pushes for - what does a breed lose when those genetics are eliminated? I think unfortunately we've found out already if you compare modern strains of the Border Collie.

The "heat" in my reply wasn't directed at Colleen at all. I do feel this is a relevant point for all working breeds to address.

Testament to the politics and dog showing.... The belgian shepherd is a single breed with four (yes four) varieties every where in the world except the AKC.  They started out as Belgian Shepherds with the first Groendahls (black dogs)  in the fifties there was a breed club vote that seperated them into different breeds.  Funny that idea, while you can still get black and brown dogs in the same litter, long coats and short coats in the same litter, and short coats and wire coats in the same litter... Sure, they are different breeds.

Brookcove, I just wanted to say I love your tall smooth dog in that photo.

The one thing I do find interesting about the working/show BC split is that the show BCs are gravitating towards what I would consider 'Aussie' type and build, despite the fact that their working style is supposed to be different.

There was a very cute HobNob border collie at the show this weekend.

ORIGINAL: lorib

Black and tan is a DQ in Pits and Am Staffs.  For the life of me, I can't see WHY.  This color doesn't make any difference in working ability.

 
This is wrong. Black and tan tris in AKC Am Staffs is a fault only. I know plenty of tris that have CH and even a tri piebald that had 2 black spots and 1 rust spot the size of a pencil eraser that CH. Fault only not a DQ.
 
The only DQ in UKC APBTs as a color is for merles. There never have been merle APBTs until someone started with the cathoula crosses and hung papers.

Just curious, why do they cross Catahoulas and APBTs? For the color? I adore Catahoulas but I'd consider a cross with a pit to be a terrible idea - a well-bred pit is far more suitable as a companion dog than even the nicest Catahoula.

Again, nothing against Catahoulas but nothing like creating a highy reactive, herdy pit bull? []

Yes, the Hob Nob dogs are drop dead gorgeous aren't they? They do look like a cross of Aussie and Sheltie (oh, how they hate it when we say that!).

However, I'm pretty sure there's no conscious effort to emulate any other breed (though it's weird how they tape the ears to be like shelties when the ears on a BC are usually set lower). They are just breeding for what wins - that reaching gait and the conformation that produces it (more square and equine than wolfish like a working BC), that expression, the infantile head, and lovely coat and clear markings as a bonus. They are using as a genetic base, imported dogs that haven't worked sheep in thirty dog generations or more. What they have been bred for is how to win shows - these dogs take group and BIS overseas quite frequently.

Ultimately, if the system is set up to reward what wins at shows, it makes it really hard to argue any other point of view.

Someone had an oops litter back in the mid 80's and hung papers on them. They then called it a spontaneous mutation and "rare" color and cashed in on yet another fad color.

the pit/cat cross is a popular mix for hog hunters. they will cross hound/cat or pit/hound or cat/pit or american bulldog/cat.
its all just to combine the traits of a tough tenacious dog with a tough, herding, couragous dog.

its rarely got much to do with looks. and yes its a bad idea to cross them if you want a pet.. and people do it but they'e morons.... but for the "Cur" dog.. (the hunting dogs)... its said to be a great and useful very smart mixture. the opinions vary though.... same thing with sight hound hunters. there are dog men that wont have anything to do with a lurcher that has Saluki in its back ground, but others wont have anything BUT Saluki lurchers.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that conformation dogs are any better than working dogs!  I completely understand that most of these AKC dogs haven't ever been around sheep.  I think its sad that many of them have very little use anymore.  One thing I like about Parsons is that they are still very much a working breed.  I know quite a few who do earthdog trials or lure coursing.  Their look is an important part of their original fox hunting job.  The white color to distinguish them from the fox.  The small size to fit into fox dens.  Flexibility to turn back around in those dens.  Their chest must be able to be spanned by average hands and it should be flexible.  Course coat for weather protection.  All of the traits for them pertain to their job.  Not all dogs are like this though.  My point about BCs was just that it is nice to see something other than the usual black/white Australian type that usually wins.  Its also nice to talk to owners who actually use their dogs for working.  Their aren't too many but a few.

They are just breeding for what wins - that reaching gait and the conformation that produces it

I think that's a very true and dead on statement as to what goes on in the conformation ring - breeding for what wins. A lot of the dogs put up don't even really match the *written* standard... but they match what is winning at that point.

At any rate, there are lots of folks who breed their border collies for livestock work - you just won't find them in the show ring. [] All this "a border collie must have such and such angle to work properly" stuff? Just-so stories that have really no foundation in real life work situations. What in the world would they say about that tall lanky smoothie with the big ol ears? One prick, and one stupid ear? Eeep!

Brookcove, I just wanted to say I love your tall smooth dog in that photo.

Thanks! Nick's a very good boy, and really does have legs up to here. He and his littermates (the two to the right) turn 1 year old in just 3 days - and it's been a great year so far. All three of them are looking good on sheep so far - and I couldn't possibly be more pleased with Nick. I kinda think he's handsome too. []

Oh boy - happy doodle doodle birthday to Nick and sibs! We definitely must do Vinnies - maybe we can bring a cake - wouldn't that be a funny surprise for Julie? A little cake, not too tempting for the dieters. []

ORIGINAL: brookcove

Oh boy - happy doodle doodle birthday to Nick and sibs! We definitely must do Vinnies - maybe we can bring a cake - wouldn't that be a funny surprise for Julie? A little cake, not too tempting for the dieters. []

[sm=biggrin.gif] I'll take Vinnie's and a cake! *licks lips* I decided last night that maybe Nick could sleep loose... you know... since he's almost a year old. Nope. Can you say jumping bean on speed? Put him in his crate and he fell right to sleep. He says thank you for the birthday wishes!