German Shepherds

is that their law in Germany or just an agreed upon practice? because i believe that is how it should be here in America with all working breeds.

I'm not sure if it's a written law, but SV rules state the criterion that must be met in order for a dog to be registerable with the SV.
 

to see a working dog not worked is like seeing thoroughbred horse hitched to the pony rides. but that's how i feel.

I see your point DumDog, but for me, it's not so much about a dog being worked as it is preserving working ability.  After all, even the two most high octane type GSDs will produce a litter that has some mellow buggers in it   Some that are suited just fine to playing a bit of bally or frisbee in the yard, and going for a 3 mile jog every day.
 
I don't care so much that a dog is "Worked" as I care that it's ability to do so is preserved, because honestly, it's not 1905 and Sheep are not wholly abundant anymore.
 
Plenty of bad guys out there, but not enough money in the budget for K9's or enough officers who want to be K9 units.  Most of these dogs won't be doing anything but holding down a couch, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't preserve the breed's ability should it come back into high demand some day (You never know what the future holds).

Without meeting the SV requirements you have bred a mutt and it can`t get it`s pink papers.
 
"of course if you spend time with your dog, go for walks and play then great, you're at least stimulating his mind and giving him what he needs emotionally.... but .. ugh.. well you probably know what i'm getting at.
to see a working dog not worked is like seeing thoroughbred horse hitched to the pony rides.
but that's how i feel."
 
In a dogs mind if he gets the mental stimulation and the exercise then his work may be police work, seeing eye work, agility, Schutzhund, or just constant exercise with the owner, nursing homes, hospitals, frisbee, ball, tracking, etc.

Ah, well, the loves of my life!
 
What you need to know, regardless of lines, regardless of working or show, regardless of German, East German, whatever, is that german shepherds are too danged smart for their own good and that they WILL challenge you every step of the way as far as YOUR ability to stay one step ahead of them.  Once they commit the first act of stufficide be afraid....be very afraid, because then ANY piece of upholstered furniture looks like a giant stuffy!  Says the woman who lost a new lazboy wall hungger recliner and MOST of a pillow back sofa......but these things CAN be avoided....you just have to think on your feet and be at least 1/2 a step ahead of them.
 
GSD's need a job...they've GOTTA have a job to do.  One of my foster pups is the official "take it to DS"  "carry the wallet" type gal.  It keeps Molly happy that she has these jobs, and doubtless saves Mary a good many steps!  You don't have to have a flock of sheep for them to herd, but you've gotta have something for them to consider THEIR job.
 
I've never had issues with insurance.  We were with State Farm for years and all they ever asked when we moved to a new state is if there was a bite history.  SF rates in MI were outrageous so I investigated several companies before I moved to another one and NONE of them even asked the breed.....the company I went with DID ask but then followed up with the bite history question and that was it.  I could have lied....they could be bad a$$ dogs who bite everyone they see...they didn't do a follow up on that that I know of.
 
As for camping, never been an issue either.  I don't take all of them.  My RV is only a 37 footer and it's just not big enough for SIX dogs.  But I've taken 3 at a time and requested a shaded site that was a bit secluded without any issues.
 
When we walk in town, farily little me with over 200 lbs of dogs I get some "looks" but often drivers will slow down or stop to tell me how well trained they are that I can handle three at a time in highly distracting circumstances.  THEY are wonderful ambassadors for the breed just by being them.
 
Tyler, well, Tyler struts his stuff ALLLL the time.  From the MS Walk, where you find a lot of cockers, poodles and labs, to the work he does at the old folks home.  This kind of just evolved....mostly because I felt so badly about a really crappy placement for him that only lasted two months...I don't get fooled often.  And I needed to help him build his self confidence.
 
Word of warning tho....just like Pringles, once you pop you can't stop!  Who'd a thunk when I was recovering from a gsd attack years ago that I'd ever own not one, not two, not three, but SIX of the darned things!

ORIGINAL: Xeph

is that their law in Germany or just an agreed upon practice? because i believe that is how it should be here in America with all working breeds.

I'm not sure if it's a written law, but SV rules state the criterion that must be met in order for a dog to be registerable with the SV.

to see a working dog not worked is like seeing thoroughbred horse hitched to the pony rides. but that's how i feel.

I see your point DumDog, but for me, it's not so much about a dog being worked as it is preserving working ability.  After all, even the two most high octane type GSDs will produce a litter that has some mellow buggers in it   Some that are suited just fine to playing a bit of bally or frisbee in the yard, and going for a 3 mile jog every day.

I don't care so much that a dog is "Worked" as I care that it's ability to do so is preserved, because honestly, it's not 1905 and Sheep are not wholly abundant anymore.

Plenty of bad guys out there, but not enough money in the budget for K9's or enough officers who want to be K9 units.  Most of these dogs won't be doing anything but holding down a couch, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't preserve the breed's ability should it come back into high demand some day (You never know what the future holds).

How do you preserve working ability without working a dog? How do you prove working ability without actually working? How are you going to preserve the GSD's working ability without using it? Maybe the better question would be, what do you actually consider to be working ability?

Now, maybe my understanding of what constitutes as "work" is incorrect, but I don't think it's bad to have a GSD and not work it in the sense that it is not part of a K9 unit, herding sheep, or doing protection.  I DO think that every GSD deserves some type of job or some activities designed for the dog, not just activities like going on a walk around the block and being put out in the yard.  I do not intend to "work" my GSD, but we are doing agility, training for CGC and hopefully doing tracking if I can find a local club and trainer.  I have a smaller, more compact GSD whose mother is an agility champion and whose father and some of her offspring were/are great trackers, so I think it's safe to say she will be better off doing these activities given her structure and breeding than doing real "work" like herding school and protection training.  If I wanted a protection dog, I would have bought or adopted a GSD bred from those lines to do that type of work, but it just doesn't suit her temperament or physical structure.  I don't think that makes her unworthy or any less of a German Shepherd, we just have to find the right "job" for her to do.

I really don't have a problem with GSDs being bred as companion dogs, as long as the same rules for ethics and good breeding apply to those breeders.  Those animals should be sold on a spay/neuter contract (the ones I've found already are).  So, the companion GSDs really aren't being bred or passed off as "working" dogs anyway, at least not with the breeders I've been looking at.  I know so many families who are GSD people for life and their dogs are great companion animals, as long as someone in the family does to a little extra work giving the dog a "job" (like the dad doing advanced obedience or the kids doing agility).  Most breeders are already selling the dogs that lack drive as companion animals.  I think this is a good balance.  My dog isn't a great show prospect and isn't drive-y enough for really intense work, so she's coming to me as a companion and agility dog.  We don't want to cull dogs that lack working drive just for the sake of preserving the working dogs.  Just sell them spayed and neutered, keep on breeding the dogs with working drive, correct structure, and championships, and everyone gets the dogs they want.

i am not a shepherd owner (right now - have many years of owning them under my belt though) but i guess i am looking at from the bulldog breed perspective. we all saw what happened when the English bulldog went from blue collar dog to useless lump on the floor that snores... not to mention health.
but all the bulldog breeds we have today are just offshoots from the EB. but those all still work - except for the extreme Johnson type American Bulldogs, but they're just giant EBs -
you cant go out and work a bulldog on bulls because 1. its illegal and 2. its cruel and 3. unnecessary just to sustain working ability. but you CAN weight pull, obediance train, get a spring pole or .. well the sky is the limit.
some people with collies get ducks for the collies to herd, or the collies herd their kids or other pets. some people do Sch. or obediance and the like.
its just my opinion like in Germany that the potential breeder must prove he still has the grey matter and wits to do that job, not just look like he might be able to.
breeding working dogs to be pet quality is contradicting. if you want a "pet" then there are a number of other breeds suited for it. if you like workers because of their looks then you probably should just admire from afar OR take up that lifestyle or some form of it so you can REALLY appriciate the breed.
again just my opinion.

breeding working dogs to be pet quality is contradicting. if you want a "pet" then there are a number of other breeds suited for it. if you like workers because of their looks then you probably should just admire from afar OR take up that lifestyle or some form of it so you can REALLY appriciate the breed.

Would the same criticism apply to labradors?  I see FAR more labs in homes that have no business with labs than I do GSDs.  Labs are the most "popular" animal dropped off at our shelter (pits, pit mixes, and others of the pit variety a very close second).  The ones we get are typically very high energy, high strung, pushy, and mouthy.  As far as shelter dogs go, I've never seen dogs as mouthy as the labs.  Now I was raised around field labs, not GSDs, so we love to take these labs out in the runs and get them going in the pool, retrieving their toys and swimming around.  Most of these guys just aren't good companion dogs.  They are gun dogs that want to swim and retrieve, not walk around the block twice a day and play fetch in a yard the size of a postage stamp.

I do see what you are saying and I agree to an extent, but I don't think this problem is at all unique to companion German Shepherds.   Also, I have no problems with kennels breeding GSDs for temperment and health.  These are the top priorities of Chop's breeder.  They select imports from working lines and all of her dogs are OFA hips and elbows, championed in the show ring to prove they match standard, and titled in agility, tracking, and/or obedience.  She will NOT breed a dog that has poor structure or an unacceptable temperament, even if the dog has amazing working drive.  They are certainly not relaxing their standards and I cannot even post the things they have to say about some of the "beauty pageant" dogs coming from the West German show line kennels.  If any dogs are losing ground as far as working ability, it's some of the West German show lines, NOT the working lines sometimes being sold as companions.  IMO, the temperament and companion aspect of the GSD standard is as important as pure working drive.  It's part of who they are.  If people want a more drive-y dog that's probably not suited for family companionship the way a GSD can be, get a Malinois.

Would the same criticism apply to labradors?  I see FAR more labs in homes that have no business with labs than I do GSDs.  Labs are the most "popular" animal dropped off at our shelter (pits, pit mixes, and others of the pit variety a very close second).  The ones we get are typically very high energy, high strung, pushy, and mouthy.  As far as shelter dogs go, I've never seen dogs as mouthy as the labs.  Now I was raised around field labs, not GSDs, so we love to take these labs out in the runs and get them going in the pool, retrieving their toys and swimming around.  Most of these guys just aren't good companion dogs.  They are gun dogs that want to swim and retrieve, not walk around the block twice a day and play fetch in a yard the size of a postage stamp.

well i was saying any and all working breed, not just limited to GSDs. but i think if people took the dog's actual purpose into consideration they wouldnt be returning it or dropping it off at the pound six months later. a friend of mine was admiring a "Native American Dog", saying it seems small, friendly, cute, good for an indoor pet which is what he wanted. i told him he was wrong and looks are decieving. explained the dogs personality, energy levels, and history not to mention what they were bred from.... he changed his mind completely... named another breed.... same story... then decided he'd just stick with keeping his one and only cat.... smart man.

i cant say "Owning a GSD for a pet is wrong" because i would be contradicting myself because all my past shepherds WERE pets. they didnt do bite work, or obediance, and certainly didnt herd anything. their only job was to bark at trespassers and look fierce so no one would break in and kill us in our sleep.... but i noticed the ones i had had a weakness.... if you were a bigger alpha than they were then they would step aside. my dad thought it was funny to prove this again and again. my dogs would duck and run when he came around.... my bulldogs? No. They keep their heads up, tail high, ears forward and chest out. it isnt a display. its a serious and "nothing personal but get out" kind of thinking. my dad doesnt challenge my dogs anymore. with MY shepherds my thought was always "well... if HE could do it... so could anyone else who is smart enough to call a dog's bluff"
my dad is a shepherd owner and loves the breed but he knows their weaknesses towards "follow the leader"
not saying they're all like that, but you have to REALLY look and WANT a shepherd with a drive that is constantly challenging your authority. most wont do that.
again, not putting them down because i like shepherds a lot. just not for guarding. but they are still great police dogs in most cases. but i have seen it myself.. give a dog a good enough whack on the head and they're done with you. but that's how they train them in Sch.
granted, most people in their right mind wont call a snarling snapping dog's bluff, but then again.. most criminals arent in their right mind. but that kind of case is pretty rare and doesnt normally happen to average people on a day to day basis. so i still agree that shepherds are good watch dogs and most are content to just lie by your side and be calm and relaxed.

All that ^^ I can agree with (getting an indian dog for looks, wha?!?! nuh uh).  I don't think Shepherds are that great of watch dogs or guard dogs either, it's just that you can train them to do whatever the heck you want them to, so if "guarding" means sending the dog to chase down a perp that is trying to resist arrest, the dog will do it, not because he's better at that than some other dogs but because he's so versatile and trainable that the policeman has trained him to do this (and then let go of the perp on command).  I also think the visual deterrence factor is huge.  My MIL fears dogs with "pointy ears and black faces" and I think a lot of JQP is the same way.  It's not that they ARE better, they just SEEM better, hehe.  I did not select Chop as a protection dog, but I can't say that having a dog most people fear doesn't make me feel better.  I do not expect her to attack or bark at strangers on command, I just expect her to stand there and look scary![]  A shepherd may back down where a bulldog won't, but not a lot of strangers are willing to test the shepherd's limits! 

This is the part of the standard that speaks to me:

t is poised, but when the occasion demands, eager and alert; both fit and willing to serve in its capacity as companion, watchdog, blind leader, herding dog, or guardian, whichever the circumstances may demand.

So basically the dog should be versatile and ready to do whatever the handler demands, but shouldn't necessarily be overly protective and aggressive without being commanded.  I think "demand" is the key word.  The dog needs to be told what to do and needs to be trained to do it.

So basically the dog should be versatile and ready to do whatever the handler demands, but shouldn't necessarily be overly protective and aggressive without being commanded.  I think "demand" is the key word.  The dog needs to be told what to do and needs to be trained to do it.

thats what i love most about all German breeds. they're all so versatile, and willing to learn what ever their master can throw at them.
Bulldogs are smart but.. heh even i have to admit they have that big lug personality. they're like bar room bouncers and thats pretty much all they do.. rough people up when they step out of line. lol i kinda DO like it when people come over and dont get out of their car right away because they see two or three bulldogs in the yard. When we had the exterminator rep come out to do a pricing Ben was hiding under the shed (actually taking a nap) but when i mentioned Ben the guy was like "You have another? Where?" ...under there.. "Whoa! i didnt even know! *bends over to look, sees scary looking sour mug Ben* I was standing right here in danger and you didnt even tell me!"
as if i would let on just how big of a pussy cat Ben is [8|]
Ben looks twice as fierce as Kaydee but thats all he is.... and i'm happy with it lol
like you said... as long as the dog looks tough is enough to keep MOST perps in line.

back to GSDs, my brother had one of moodiest males i had ever seen.... i had to dogsit this monster once while my brother went to handle some business.... the dog paced and howled, growled, jumped up on me and looked me in the like "Listen you. I KNOW you have him stashed somewhere in this house, now where is he!" he wasnt satisfied from the ear scratching so he calmly walked over to his water bowl and FLIPPED IT OVER!! Then gave me the same look. what a brat! lol

How do you preserve working ability without working a dog? How do you prove working ability without actually working? How are you going to preserve the GSD's working ability without using it? Maybe the better question would be, what do you actually consider to be working ability?

 
You're reading things into my post that aren't there.
 
It's true, most of the GSDs these days will be holding down a couch, however, by selling to people truly interested in SchH, French Ring, Mondio Ring, and Personal Protection, you can still preserve working ability.
 
 

Also, just because there are more people buying GSDs to be companions doesn't mean there are less people doing herding, protection, police work, SAR, Schutzhund, etc. with their GSDs.  I don't think the breed is in danger of losing the working drive, it just depends on the lines and what kennel the dog is from.

Yeah, I wasn't saying "I condone breeding for pets!"
 
What I was saying that I KNOW and ACCEPT that many GSDs are gonna be house pets.  I was NOT saying "Chuck working ability out the window!"  I was not saying "If they're all gonna be pets, why bother!?"  I just wanted people to realize that while you SHOULD continue to breed for working ability (through the parents and through keeping things back from your litters), most people that are going to go to a breeder are going to want a house pet.
 
I can understand this and when I start breeding I will match people up accordingly.  I will NOT allow a superior sport/conformation prospect to a pet home.  I will keep it for myself (if I have the room) or keep it  (and train/work it) until I find a sport home appropriate for that animal.
 
When I say "I don't care if a dog is worked" I mean a dog that has been sold to a pet home.  I care if it is happy, healthy, and properly looked after, but a pet home is just that.  A pet home.  If they just happen to be bitten by the performance bug later on ithe dog's life, I will encourage them to start with that dog, and if they want another puppy that is more suited to performance work, I would help them get one.
 
Besides, if a dog is properly structured and has a stable temperament, even though it may not be SchH III material, it doesn't mean that the dog can't at least get its BH (My Strauss is that way).  And even if the dog is a little pokey in movement, that doesn't mean the dog isn't a good start for agility.  Everybody has to start somewhere.
 
But there are always going to be more pet homes than working homes, and people should be aware of that.  I'm not saying one should completely toss out working ability!  Just screen carefully and keep back your best workers and send your "ok" workers to beginner homes or your "maybes" to pet/beginner homes

The way you continue the breed in it`s purest state is breed only the best males to the best females. The ones with structure, drive, temperament, health certs. Testing must be very critical in all areas. Lack even one desired trait and don`t breed that animal. Add in some line breeding to enhance some of those traits. You will inevitably get some softer dogs and dogs not breeding worthy. Those dogs get neutered and are sold as pets.

If you are looking for just a pet, get a rescue! []