Breed Personalities

ORIGINAL: Xeph

I stand by my statement,,,,  Herding is about brains, not brawn

Aye...it's more about the threat and possibility of harm rather than actually engaging an animal.

Even the most stubborn bulls seems to think twice before engaging a dog with bared teeth that stares them right in the eye.  Humans respond the same way...how often do you see someone test a threat unless they're super stoned or high on rage?

The threat of being shot (and even more often, which amuses me, the threat of the release of the k9), is often enough to stop a perp in their tracks.  "Do I really want to call their bluff?"  usually...they don't.

i saw on a cop show a few weeks ago (actual video footage of cops with criminals) a guy and an officer engaged, the officer released his dog, the bad guy TOOK the cops gun and hit the dog with it. the dog ran away.... the guy and cop fought and wrestled some more, the dog came back and bit the bad guy, bad guy hit the dog again... and the dog ran away. So after the bad guy had the cop beaten down he aimed the gun to fire it... but the gun jammed..... so the cop had time to pull out his reserve pistol and emptied it in the bad guy.
Now... what an ex K-9 trainer told me when i told him about what i saw was that the dogs are trained to go AFTER someone who is running. They arent really taught to fight outright if the bad guy fights back.... What i have seen with "manstopper" breeds is in their training they are taught to fight back and not give in to pressure. infact i have seen some dogs get REALLY intense when pressure is applied. THAT is what i would want as a personal protection dog.
No not all bad guys are going to call the dog's bluff, but the one on the cop show sure did. that dog was retired due to injuries sustained from the beating she took from the butt of the gun. She was a GSD.

Now... what an ex K-9 trainer told me when i told him about what i saw was that the dogs are trained to go AFTER someone who is running.

The dogs are trained to go after whoever they're told to go after...it's just that most often, people are RUNNING away, and that is what is trained for.  Dogs are released because the perp won't stop, but I've seen dogs released on perps who weren't running away, but approaching (in a threatening manner).
 
That dog running away is less than acceptable, and many dogs have fight drive, but really aren't very civil (this is what I've been taught and told).  Finding a good civil dog is like a gift from the heavens.  Dogs that will bite and hold that have good fight and civil drive...balancing act and luck from what I've learned.
 
The rule is that the dog shouldn't let go no matter WHAT is being done to it, and it makes me wonder how that dog was in training.

I feel bad for the poor girl..How many times in training do the dogs get hit hard by a piece of steel...I don't care who you are,thats got to hurt..She came back though..I have a lot of respect for those K9 officers..

No doubt the shepherd had enough guts to come back and take another hit, but that was all she could take. she had her brains rattled good and propper, those guns are heavy (my bro. is a police officer) i cant imagine being hit by one.

I dont have the book i read it in close at hand, but there was a group in California that trains American Bulldogs to take a LOT of punishment during training sessions. The way the sessions were described were they had folding chairs set, a milk jug with rocks, and the usual bamboo noise makers used for schutzhunde. I can hardly describe in depth what they did, but pretty much they put as much pressure on the dog as possible. the trainer fights back, rather than "running" from the dog. Any dog will chase and bite, yes, that's instinct. But few dogs will know what to do if the perp turns and fights (caged animal)
It makes sense that shepherds are used as a deterrent. You're right, not many people are willing to call the bluff of an 80 lb German Shepherd who is snarling and barking and charging right for you. But they're herding dogs. they are being trained to... hmmm.. herd people. Bulldogs were trained to herd bulls, thousands of pounds of p*ssed off testosterone, muscle and horns. Sheep and cows wont usually fight back, but a bull will, hence the name "bull"dog.

You know i got into an argument once with someone over something like this. We were watching the Caucasian Mt. Dog personal protection videos on Youtube.com. She kept pointing out that the dog was scared, even though he was biting. the handler wasnt putting enough pressure on him. The handler would apply pressure, the dog would heat up, bite the sleeve or bite suit and get vicious with barking and snarling, but she kept saying the trainer backed off and stopped before the dog broke down. She said the dog was a borderline wuss. it was obvious to her, but not me..
I made the argument that.... What man in his right mind is going to stand his ground when a 150lb mountain of hair and teeth is coming straight for his face? What kind of a person would need a dog THAT intense for PP?
I would imagine the police officer that was let down by his dog would have wanted one of those "Cujo dogs" with him that day.
Incidently the person i was arguing with works her american bulldog in schutzehunde so she is used to a dog that will not bend when pressure is increased. But i dont think Caucasian Mt. Dogs are made for that. They're guardians of the flock, i dont know if they are drovers or herders, or JUST guardians that rely mainly on threat displays and bluffing.
The Bulldog and CMD are polar opposites it seems.

Ovcharkas are flock guardians.  They generally don't herd.  They have a job:  kill wolves and treat other intruders with suspicion.  They perform that job very very well.  They have the temperment to be pretty good personal protection, but more than protection is intimidation.  I don't want a dog that weighs as much as I do charging and leaping on me.

(I was actually researching the Ovcharkas before I picked PHs, I find them and their history fascinating.)

Two of the best dogs in my life were Ursa a Mcnab, German Shepherd mix and my current dog Chelsea a Mcnab , Jack Russel mix. When Ursa was young she used to herd the turkeys as if she had always herded turkey. When it came to agility she could hold her own with the best, she was the only dog that I have had that could do a back flip or run at and spring jump off a tree. I thought Ursa was the most intelligent and peaceful dog that I had ever owned till I got Chelsea. Chelsea has none of the herd instincts of the Mcnab and all of the mouse killing skills of a Jack in a fifty pound package. She is the most patient and brilliant, understanding dog that I have met. No agility skills to speak of and cannot catch a ball [she blocks the ball like a soccer player] . But she is loving, gentle and a sweetheart. I tried spelling words instead of saying them, but she learned the letters too.

I used to prefer purebred dogs and still have a desire to breed Jacks. But all studies show that mutts live longer and healthier. I have had purebreds and mutts live to ripe old ages . I had a mixed large breed live to an age that surprised the vet, Oshota was a Rottweiller crossed with an Irish wolfhound/ Golden retriever. She topped out at 112 pounds and lived to 13 1/2 years old of spondylosis, a small dog disease. Oddly the Rottweiller has a small dog gene and is the only large dog that does. Oshota did not have much of any kind of specific behavior related to any of her breed mix except for the calm sweet character of the Irish wolfhound. Two of my friends own Mcnab, Border collies and both are amazing dogs, Goldie circles like a Mcnab and Mollie crouch's like a Border collie. Here in Humboldt county California we have a large dairy and steer industry and herd dogs are very common, especially the Mcnab which originated and is still bred out of Ukiah north of San Fransisco.

spondylosis, a small dog disease.

 
Then the German Shepherd Dogs didn't get the memo, because we have em droppin left and right from spondy...that and DM

ORIGINAL: TheDragonslayer

Two of the best dogs in my life were Ursa a Mcnab, German Shepherd mix and my current dog Chelsea a Mcnab , Jack Russel mix. When Ursa was young she used to herd the turkeys as if she had always herded turkey. When it came to agility she could hold her own with the best, she was the only dog that I have had that could do a back flip or run at and spring jump off a tree. I thought Ursa was the most intelligent and peaceful dog that I had ever owned till I got Chelsea. Chelsea has none of the herd instincts of the Mcnab and all of the mouse killing skills of a Jack in a fifty pound package. She is the most patient and brilliant, understanding dog that I have met. No agility skills to speak of and cannot catch a ball [she blocks the ball like a soccer player] . But she is loving, gentle and a sweetheart. I tried spelling words instead of saying them, but she learned the letters too.

I used to prefer purebred dogs and still have a desire to breed Jacks. But all studies show that mutts live longer and healthier. I have had purebreds and mutts live to ripe old ages . I had a mixed large breed live to an age that surprised the vet, Oshota was a Rottweiller crossed with an Irish wolfhound/ Golden retriever. She topped out at 112 pounds and lived to 13 1/2 years old of spondylosis, a small dog disease. Oddly the Rottweiller has a small dog gene and is the only large dog that does. Oshota did not have much of any kind of specific behavior related to any of her breed mix except for the calm sweet character of the Irish wolfhound. Two of my friends own Mcnab, Border collies and both are amazing dogs, Goldie circles like a Mcnab and Mollie crouch's like a Border collie. Here in Humboldt county California we have a large dairy and steer industry and herd dogs are very common, especially the Mcnab which originated and is still bred out of Ukiah north of San Fransisco.

do you have a picture of the IW/Rotty/Golden? that sounds pretty wild....

Also i have never heard of a mcnab.. going to have to do some research now.