Breed Personalities

Xeph you actually answered my question. Shepherds have a business like quality about them when it comes to work. BCs are.. as you said, a bit manic. i've only seen GSDs working sheep once and they're quite different, they didnt seem to use eye contact quite so much like you pointed out, which seems to work well on livestock - remember Ol' Yeller when he stared down Rose the mad cow?
I would still like to know why people are turning the GSDs into manstoppers instead of their origional purpose. i suppose in an alternative reality people could just as easily have chosen another breed, but its just something i wonder. I dont question why rotties are used in protection work because their duty was to drive the stock to market, protect the stock, protect their human partner, and guard the money made off the stock on their way back home. Maybe since the GSD was a farely young breed he had a lot of potential to do anything. That's one thing i admire about the Germans. when they create an animal for work, they make sure it is dual purpose.


anyway, rw- i dont like the naivety that dog breeders have. some people sling the term BYB around and will pin it on anyone they think deserves it. then they ask what makes a reputable breeder... but is there such a thing as a reputable breeder? you know good and well how many dogs are dying in shelters, but its ok if you breed your dogs because they have show titles and health certs. they arent "one of them", and you are not a "back yard breeder".
A breeder is a breeder. What makes them better than anyone else that breeds? If you wanted to REALLY help fix the problem then you would STOP breeding, go out and bring home some homeless puppies.
Reputable breeders say they want to help improve their chosen breed, make it better, breed for good temperments and good confirmation and good health, but why choose a working breed just to make it a useless lump because you dont also work that dog in field trials? That was the fate of the English Bulldog - he was not origionally a fighting dog or a bull baiting for sport, he was a DROVER... a butchers dog. it was required by LAW that bulls be baited before slaughter because it was believed it made the meat taste better and made it healthier for human consumption.
People have progressed since then and know better, but why did they ruin the english bulldog? they added pug to the origonal EBs which looked something like boxers with curly tails, then they added a few other things then they distorted his looks beyond recognition. THEN they wrote the standard for the EB. They said he had to have a wrinkled face so the blood would be able to run off and not get in his eyes .... they also said a number of other silly things to explain why he looked grotesque.... My favourite breeds are bulldog breeds, and a good majority of them are NOT in the AKC. It makes me angry that dog shows and breeders ruined the origional British Bulldog just for fashion. So here is my gripe - I dont like breeders that JUST breed for showing purposes, especially with working dogs. I dont like people using the BYB term so loosely, blaming them for the surpluss dogs in shelters when they know they are adding to the problem as well. Those purebred show dogs are taking away homes from shelter dogs too.
Its just my personality. It doesnt really bother me if you dont like me or if i remind you of some other members. i would like to meet that EX member just to see if they share my opinions or if you're way off base and tyring to be ugly.
If this is going to be a forum that blasts people into crispy critters because they voice their opinions then i guess i will eventually go elsewhere.
I love dogs and i love history. I spent years burried in books studying history, archeaology, and the evolution of man's best friend. I want to see dogs prosper and still be man's most trusted companion. The preservation of History should not rest on their shoulders. Their bodies should not be distorted and maligned just because people want them to look a certain way because that is what they looked like in a painting from three centuries ago.

Several things I want to address.  Let's start from the top shall we!

i've only seen GSDs working sheep once and they're quite different, they didnt seem to use eye contact quite so much like you pointed out, which seems to work well on livestock

They don't use eye contact because they aren't supposed to.  It's not about controlling where the stock goes, it's simply about keeping it IN.  Will they eye up a stray animal and put it back where it belongs?  Sure.  But the eye isn't NEARLY as strong as in the BC, because it really isn't needed.
The general presence of the dog and its movements are enough.

I would still like to know why people are turning the GSDs into manstoppers instead of their origional purpose. i suppose in an alternative reality people could just as easily have chosen another breed, but its just something i wonder.

The GSDs job has ALWAYS been to protect.  They were originally in the working group.  Even in the HGH, I do believe the dog is required to take one bite on a would be sheep thief.  While the dog DOES herd, it also PROTECTS the flock.  It has always been meant for that kind of stopping power.

When Shepherds turned to other methods of tending their flocks, the GSD was quickly finding it's way out of a job.  Capt von Stephanitz didn't want to see that happen, and the GSD became a patrol dog, war dog, seeing eye dog, etc.  The GSD is Jack of all trades, Master of none.  The GSD is a breed that is smaller than a Rott, but has a crapload of power.  The GSD is a breed that is highly intelligent and biddable, whereas the Rott, while smart, isn't quite as quick to pick up on things, AND they're more headstrong and willing to test leadership.

That's one thing i admire about the Germans. when they create an animal for work, they make sure it is dual purpose.

Partially through force.  People in Germany and those who follow the German system here in America that show German dogs put schutzhund titles on the animals because it's required, otherwise the German Showline would go the way of the American.

you know good and well how many dogs are dying in shelters, but its ok if you breed your dogs because they have show titles and health certs. they arent "one of them", and you are not a "back yard breeder".

Yes.

If you wanted to REALLY help fix the problem then you would STOP breeding, go out and bring home some homeless puppies.

But this is a very narrow and ineffective mindset.  Not everybody WANTS a shelter dog.  Not everybody WANTS a mutt.  I don't.  Will I rescue?  Yes.  But I want a purebred rescue...I want to know to the best of my ability, what I'm getting.  I know what traits come in a GSD, I know what health issues may present themselves, I know how a GSD behaves and what it looks like.  Why should I be penalized for that?  Am I a bad person because I don't want a heinz 57? 

There's nothing wrong with them, I HAVE had them, but I prefer the predictability of a purebred dog.  I do NOT deal well with surprises, and a mutt could have anything from cardio to HD to some nasty behavior patterns that come from a certain breed of dog it's mixed with.  I don't want that.  I want as predictable as possible.

Not every mutt is going to fit with every family.  Not every purebred is going to fit every family.  It's important to have the RIGHT fit for a family, because a dog is for life, and sometimes a purebred is just better for that than a mixed breed.  For people who like unpredictability and don't mind rolling the dice, a mixed shelter dog may be for them.  Not for me.  I'll roll the dice on behavioral issues, but when it comes to health, I want to know what I could possibly be getting, and going to a breeder or breed specific rescues puts the cards more in my favor than me going all in with a mutt.

Reputable breeders say they want to help improve their chosen breed, make it better, breed for good temperments and good confirmation and good health, but why choose a working breed just to make it a useless lump because you dont also work that dog in field trials?

This is something that I understand and in part, agree with, because I have a breed that has so many splits it's not funny.

I dont like people using the BYB term so loosely, blaming them for the surpluss dogs in shelters when they know they are adding to the problem as well.

But that's where the majority of these dogs are coming from.  People who breed Muffy so their kids can experience the "miracle of birth" or who stud out Buster and take no responsibility for the pups they have created...they just want their $500 stud fee.  And then the uneducated go out and make an impulse buy, and go home with this high drive, poorly bred, NUT JOB of a field bred Labrador, or herding bred Aussie...and then Mungo and Jenni end up in the pound, because they're nipping at the kids, or are destroying the furniture.

Those purebred show dogs are taking away homes from shelter dogs too

People need to stop looking at this like people who breed from tested stock are taking away from the shelter dogs.  These dogs are GIVING something to other people.  A good pet, a leader dog, a therapy animal, a drug detection dog.  Can mutts/shelter dogs be used for these things, of course, but it's BETTER and EASIER to buy a dog that has specific traits that have been bred for that are best for the above mentioned tasks.

There will ALWAYS be shelter dogs, because that's how it is.  Should we humans stop procreating because there's a crapload of kids in orphanages (and believe me, I "get it" I'm adopted myself).  WHY are breeders who are sending their dogs to good homes and screening buyers and health testing stop breeding because of irresponsible people who just create puppies for their own selfish reasons?

There are three GSDs in my puppy class right now:
Kaiser - From a local puppy mill, small for his age, cute as heck, temperament is "ok" right now...but I doubt it'll stay that way.  The dogs that are bred at this place have less than stellar temperaments.  I've dealt with MANY GSD pups from this kennel, so I know how they are.

Big Ben - This puppy is 15 weeks old...and is the size of a SEVEN MONTH OLD GSD.  He's a longhair...absolutely MASSIVE size for his age (and it is not just all hair!), and was bred by a person who "just wanted a litter".  Why

Diesel - From a reputable breeder who has dogs with good temperament.  She has American and German lines, Diesel is a cross.  Mom is an American Champion, dad is V rated and SchH III. 

I can tell you right now that out of the three, Diesel is probably going to end up the best (Depending on if dad raises him properly), because his parents are health tested, proven in the show ring (and on the schutzhund field) and because the breeder screened the buyer before selling her pup.

I'm wondering if i type too much and overwhelm people so that they only read PART of what i write and THEN reply.

 
Maybe it is the English teacher in me....but your posts are hard to follow without pausing to paragraph..

ORIGINAL: pndhounds

I'm wondering if i type too much and overwhelm people so that they only read PART of what i write and THEN reply.

Maybe it is the English teacher in me....but your posts are hard to follow without pausing to paragraph..

Maybe that's it. Believe it or not English used to be my best subject.... and... i am in love... with this.... little.... button....
...... cant help it..... maybe i have a nervous tick that just results in me tapping in one place too many times, and since i TRY to end sentences with a period.. tag! you're it! never really thought about it till now, so i will try to stop..... in a few minutes...

Xeph, so you see the points i am trying to make? I dont have anything against purebreds or their breeders, but it's CERTAIN people with the "Holier than Thou" personality defect that really makes me clinch my teeth. Yes its a narrow mindset to say "STOP BREEDING AND SAVE HOMELESS PUPPIES!!" but its also narrow minded of them to look down their noses just because a dog doesnt have a champion title or miles and miles of bloodlines. MOST working dogs (and i dont mean in the sporting rings - herding for a ribbon or something) but most working dogs on ranches or farms dont have titles or pedigrees either. But does that make them inferior to the ones with papers? It reminds me of the Dr. Sues story about the "Star Bellied Sneeches" (they were better than the other Sneeches because they had stars. Good story for teaching kids about the dangers of being prejudice) these old timers with their working dogs arent breeding their dogs to make money, they arent breeding them for showing, and they arent breeding them so their kids can experience the miracle of birth. Hello... we have Discovery Channel and the Library, so i have a hard time believing people even TRY to use that excuse anymore... i'd like to meet the wingnut that gave that lame excuse for why he bred his dog.) anyway, Ranchers are mainly focussed on breeding their own working dogs in the hopes of getting a Shep Jr. that will be just as good as his daddy and grand daddy etc.
I guess i'm bitter from past experiences with people in the AOL dog chatroom. i used to have fun talking to the people in there, but i had been off line for a few years, when i came back, suddenly everyone in there is expert breeder, BUT when a new person comes along asking which breed is right for them these so called experts tell them to go adopt a dog... but the newbie wants a pure bred.. So the experts flame them and belittle them, tell them they are aiding and abetting BYBs..... If someone came if asking questions about their dog who is about to drop puppies all over the living room floor, and this person truly doesnt know what to do they flame them, accuse them of being a BYB and would deserve it if their dog died along with all the puppies. They didnt ask the circumstances of why the dog was preggo. Maybe it was a stray and these people took it in rather than take her to the pound? Who knows?
So yeah i'm bitter because a lot of dog people are bitter.. i dont like "public shaming" or when people jump to conclusions. Even if that person did make a mistake, why not tell them to just call a vet, and meanwhile give some helpful advice AND try to educate them so they wont do that again? Wouldnt that help lower the over population just a little bit?

I agree with you that not everyone wants a mutt. but sometimes there are purebreds in the shelters too. But some people dont even want to adopt from a shelter. it makes more sense to adopt a dog from a foster home that way you can get some idea of what he is like IN a stable home environment rather than a chaotic overcrowded kennel situation. Most of the dogs i see in shelters are scared to death. They're nervous, shy, stressed beyond belief. That quiet dog in the corner may not be so quiet and calm when you get him home. He's probably in shock while he is sitting in that dirty kennel, which might be why he is quiet and calm. BUT sometimes there is no local breed specific rescue group. A few years ago i wanted to get a Bull Terrier. There were no breeders anywhere nearby. There were no rescue groups near by. There was however a pet store with Bull Terrier puppies.... Tempting, but no. I guess i will never own a Bull Terrier unless i want to drive 12 hours to get one. I'm not saying its a bad thing that there is an obvious lack of Bull Terriers in my state. Its probably a very good thing because that means they are most likely extremely rare, and what few are in this state are in loving homes and not being dumped in shelters. We should hope.. see, i CAN be optimistic sometimes.
And you also agree that there will always be unwanted pets.. that is unless the radicals get their way and we all end up spaying and neutering our dogs unless we have breeders licenses.
I wasnt saying End All Breeding, or End All Pure Breeding. I was pointing out the naive mindset a lot of people have about their own breeding and selling of puppies. Sure you're a reputable breeder, and you screen your buyers, and you offer to take the dog back if things go wrong.... but what about those sad eyes behind bars? Gr. Ch. Maximus Von Steppen Wolf gets top billing because he came from a reputable breeder. No one thinks about it but that is the impression they are giving. I've never lived a sheltered life. Life is cruel and i have seen all kinds cruelties. You cant save everyone. But you get these people shaking their fists one minute, then welcoming in prospective buyers the next.

So.... my thread got all changed and torn top pieces. What i thought would be interesting conversation about breed personalities and the history behind what created the breeds we have today has turned into yet another debate about homeless dogs, designer dogs and backyard breeders..... i guess i should give up.

Yes its a narrow mindset to say "STOP BREEDING AND SAVE HOMELESS PUPPIES!!" but its also narrow minded of them to look down their noses just because a dog doesnt have a champion title or miles and miles of bloodlines.

But that's not true.  My own dog doesn't have a champion title, and I happened upon a dog with a good pedigree completely by accident (His breeder is one of those BYBs).  And honestly, if I didn't have the tenacity and determination to do what I'm doing with this dog, he'd probably be in a shelter by now.
 
He's a GOOD dog, but he takes a LOT of work.  He's a normal GSD, but he wants to go go go.  Sure, he knows how to have some down time, but if he had his way, he'd work til he dropped.
 

MOST working dogs (and i dont mean in the sporting rings - herding for a ribbon or something) but most working dogs on ranches or farms dont have titles or pedigrees either. But does that make them inferior to the ones with papers?

Of course not, but these dogs are being bred for what everybody on this board has said...a purpose.  It's not titles and ribbons that make a dog, it's genetics and training, but PROVING these things through titles and working trials (When you don't have your own stock) is what keeps a lot of breeds going.
 
Honestly, how many people are out there still herding with their dogs?  There are some...but the plain old pet homes outnumber the working ones, that's for sure!  If you want "just a pet" go to a rescue, don't buy a $2500 Labradoodle that somebody bred just so they could have money, or because they thought the cross was cute.  If you want "just a pet" go to a breeder who has dogs that won't turn out for show because they're mismarked, too large, or too small.
 
It's not the DOGS we're faulting...it's the breeders of the dogs

There are three type of herding of which I am aware.

There are the dogs with eye.  BCs, ACDs, Kelpies.  These animals have the very exaggerated stalking type behaviors.  The control of the sheep is with the eye.  Wide open spaces and semi feral sheep developed dogs with deep outruns, speed, and crouching type approaches.  It was all about what the dogs had to do.  Dogs with those traits that matched the stock and the environment were selectively bred. 

Most of the European dogs are loose eyed, uprigth dogs who influenced sheep and moved them using the power and position of their bodies.  This is necessary in the tending work of herding.  You need to be able to see the dog from any part of the flock, doesnt work really well when a dog is slowly moving up in a crouch when the dog needs to keep them on the shoulder out of traffic.

Huntaways  These are also wide open space dogs yet them move stock primarily with the voice.  The sheep are driven out of the high country down to the dogs will gather them up and move them where ever the shepherd needs.

As to the working dog (manstopper folk) there a fair numbers who even resist the value of a herding dog in the development of a working protection dog:  the ability to walk calmly into pressure, bite and release on command, work at a distance and take a command they really dont care to.   This is especially true in large flock French trials which includes moving the stock (with and without traffic) road crossings (with and without traffic)  collecting and holding stock in an open field while the shepherd completes a husbandry task and defense of the shepherd defense of the flock.

ORIGINAL: mrv

Herding is about strength of "will" not brawn.  There are plenty of 30 pound BCs handling cattle.

No I disagree. Border collie was bred to keep up with the small livestocks for hours and hours. They are not bred to handle a huge cattle or to take them down to the ground.  They do not have the strength to put an animal down, so they are extremely good at nip. This is what make them a good herding breed. Cane corso was not bred to keep up with the livestocks for many hours so they do not nip. They just put an animal down since that is what make them a dominant breed. 

May I ask why  is border collie more slender than a cane corso?  Both breeds bred for different purposes.

ORIGINAL: Cane Corso

ORIGINAL: mrv

Herding is about strength of "will" not brawn.  There are plenty of 30 pound BCs handling cattle.

No I disagree. Border collie was bred to keep up with the small livestocks for hours and hours. They are not bred to handle a huge cattle or to take them down to the ground.  They do not have the strength to put an animal down, so they are extremely good at nip. This is what make them a good herding breed. Cane corso was not bred to keep up with the livestocks for many hours so they do not nip. They just put an animal down since that is what make them a dominant breed. 

May I ask why  is border collie more slender than a cane corso?  Both breeds bred for different purposes.

 
Since when is it a herding dog's job to take down cattle?  MRV stated that there are 30lb BC's herding cattle, not taking them down.  Those are two very seperate tasks. 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

ORIGINAL: Cane Corso

ORIGINAL: mrv

Herding is about strength of "will" not brawn.  There are plenty of 30 pound BCs handling cattle.

No I disagree. Border collie was bred to keep up with the small livestocks for hours and hours. They are not bred to handle a huge cattle or to take them down to the ground.  They do not have the strength to put an animal down, so they are extremely good at nip. This is what make them a good herding breed. Cane corso was not bred to keep up with the livestocks for many hours so they do not nip. They just put an animal down since that is what make them a dominant breed. 

May I ask why  is border collie more slender than a cane corso?  Both breeds bred for different purposes.

Since when is it a herding dog's job to take down cattle?  MRV stated that there are 30lb BC's herding cattle, not taking them down.  Those are two very seperate tasks. 

 
  Obvious I misread the post. Sorry.

lol, we all do that.  I didn't mean to jump on ya there![]

The breeders I got my aussie from had adopted a bc/aussie mix to use as their farm dog (the other aussies were for show/obedience/family pets & they didn't want to risk any injuries). Obviously, being a bc/aussie, it was not that large of a dog, but they used it to work their cattle. They told us that was the best cattle dog they'd ever had--tough as nails & determined as they come--even though it wasn't terribly big or muscular. Anyway, I was surprised by that & thought it  was pretty interesting.

the collies at the exposition were herding four young steers, in and around and out of fences, you know the usual herding trials. they had a few aussie shepherds, but the majority was BCs.. i was surprised to see them herding cattle too.. i just dont thinkof BCs as cattle dogs but no reason why not. i've worked with cows enough to know that they respond to eye contact just like sheep.... the difference is you dont want a full grown cow calling your bluff....
One thing i would love to see is the old drover dogs back in action. i know most people today DONT have live stock and have no need for something like that (which is why i suggest to them that they adopt a shelter dog rather than buying a pure bred working breed) but where i live i want and NEED a worker. i need a dog that can think for itself and still take orders.
The founders of the American Bulldog both used their dogs to work wild cattle. i would love to see just how that is done. I'm kinda envious of Cane Corso because he has seen his breed in action. Around here we have more of a feral pig problem than a wild cow problem.... i know that at least one of my dogs would be a good cattle or catch dog, but she has never been tested, except on some loose chickens, she tracked them, caught them, and held them down. But she probably never will be tested on anything larger since she's probably is going to be at risk for another back injury.


also... as for kelpies and blue heelers, they have Dingo in their background, but i dont remember what else went into the design. Dingo's being wild dogs, i imagine the people surrounding those guys that created heelers and kelpies thought they were nuts. that would be like crossing a coyote with a collie and then trusting it with your sheep and chickens..
although... i believe Dingos are more of a pack animal like wolves, and wolves herd deer so to speak... so maybe comparing a coyote is wrong since they're loners for the most part.

Okay respectful argument here....  A dog that takes cattle "down" (or any other livestock) is a very limited use dog.  Herding dogs are meant to move stock at market pace and in a manner that will not harm the dollar value of the animal. 
 
You do not need to take down an animal.  I have seen a number of aussies, ACDS, Kelpies and BCs deal with huge cattle just fine.  I stand by my statement,,,,  Herding is about brains, not brawn

I stand by my statement,,,,  Herding is about brains, not brawn

Aye...it's more about the threat and possibility of harm rather than actually engaging an animal.
 
Even the most stubborn bulls seems to think twice before engaging a dog with bared teeth that stares them right in the eye.  Humans respond the same way...how often do you see someone test a threat unless they're super stoned or high on rage?
 
The threat of being shot (and even more often, which amuses me, the threat of the release of the k9), is often enough to stop a perp in their tracks.  "Do I really want to call their bluff?"  usually...they don't.

the dogs i know that were designed to hold cattle down are highly valued. Sure we dont need them anymore since we have special tools and chutes just for that, but not everyone has those things. besides that, when working wild cattle you are going to need more than a rope to hang on to him.
Mostly, with American Bulldogs anyway, they were bred for tracking and catching/holding and herding in the woods.. but not exclusive to just cattle.
They were also handy to have around if you come up on an angry bull or threatened mother with a calf. more than a few bullies have saved their owners lives. So in some instances it is more brawn than brains when you have a full grown bull aiming to send you skyward. A stern look from a BC is hardly going to turn him around... but a good hard bite and dead weight hanging from his nose will get his attention.