Breed Personalities

    • Gold Top Dog

    Breed Personalities

    i want to raise another question about some designer breed mixes....
    We have Several herding breeds, collies, shelties, BCs, GSD, to name a few... they have similar interests, likes and dislikes, they love their families, can be aloof with strangers, tend to want to herd anything.... so how would a mix of those be unpredictable?
    I guess i should use the example of the doodle dogs not shepherds. they are more popular than any other designer dog at the moment... but poodles are water dogs, so are labs... both are hunting/bird dogs.. retrievers to be specific.. Poodles remind me of wiemeraners in a lot of ways... but i honestly dont know about standard poodle personalities... i have more experience with miniatures honestly.... but anyway.... i'm only asking this in regards to cross breeding dogs from the same group....
    If you have a JRT and cross it with ummm.. a staffy bull.... they're both still terriers... both are stuborn, smart, active, into mischief.... the looks may vary, but will their personalities?
    I'm not trying to stir the pot, i just really want to know because i've been wondering this for along time....  maybe i should just make a new thread.... Its the same thing i ask when i hear about Ban Dogges, which are pretty much mastiffs mixed with other mastiffs, sometimes with pitbulls. But... isnt a mastiff mixed with another type of mastiff STILL a mastiff?
    So i've been wondering that for a while. my problem with the majority of DDs is that some mixes are totally bipolar in personalites. a Boxador, or afghan spaniel.... or you can thumb through the list of nut jobs yourself...
    so whats your take on the first question? two dogs from the same group being mixed, say a Collie/Sheltie (i had one once, rather she was my mom's dog - i trained her. She was a genius dog and would do back flips and juggle flaming coconuts if i asked her to, not to mention the herding ability. She was given to us as a puppy from a lady that raised goats and horses.)
    My mom's own experience with collie mixes involved a Collie/spaniel mix she had as a teen ager. He was a natural "catch dog" not that she used him to catch hogs... but when her dad's hogs got loose her dog would attack their ears and hang on for dear life until the hog was put back in its pen. That's just weird behaviour for EITHER breed in my opinion..... herding is one thing... but trying to retrieve a hog? so yes i know personalities can go in all different directions with some mixes, but what about the group mixes?
    As i mentioned in another post, i believe in reparing the dogs we already have..... the reason most dog breeds lookdifferent is because they come from different countries and regions but essentially do the same job.
    its the difference between breeding genotype or phenotype, right? instead of breeding the purebreds together, you're breeding two different breeds that LOOK the same and have the same jobs....
    so .. opinions from breeders or anyone with experience?
    • Gold Top Dog
    You might think herders are all the same but they are not...some work from the front, some the back...some work cattle and some work sheep...some are more hands on and other aren't...some drive and some bunch...etcetcetc....all leads to differences in temperament.
     
    Mastiffs? Some were bred for war when it was a heavy slow affair so they are heavy and slow and stoic...others to protect against a slightly more active and crafty sort of criminal or miscreeant...still others were bred to course game...others to catch runaway slaves...etc etc.
     
    Terriers? All bred to kill critters....but are they all the same? Some are short legged to get into small spaces and burial mounds...some long legged to follow the hounds...some bred for relatively easy foes like mice and rats...others for far mroe formidable quarry like fox, badger, even weasel.
     
    Scenthounds have a vast difference in temperament irrespective of the fact that they were all used in pack to hunt....because of the game involved, the method required, the amount of closeness with people when they work, etc
     
    You MUST know the breed and even more important that specific line, to be remotely qualified to say what would or would not be likely to happen when you cross it with another.
     
    Then there's the genetic health aspect and impact...
     
    SOME things are found only in certain breeds..things being genetic maladies. Why would you then...introduce this into another breeds genepool? Why cross two breeds with ailments IN COMMON? Like PRA, Bloat, Cancer, Dwarfism, Hip Displasia, Epilepsy, Elbow Displaysia, Sebacious Adenitis, etc etc etc? How much time would one need to spend in each breed to feel they had a good handle on the knowledge of the above?
     
    Farm dogs, hunting dogs....they've been a bit of this and a bit of that for millenia...I haven't had a problem with that, and I still don't. BUT I would hazard to say 90% of the breed crossing being done deliberately right now...is being done by people with limited to NO knowledge of the breeds they are crossing...no intent beyond selling the pups...and using inferior, untested specimens of said breeds. What effect do you think that will have on them down the line?
    • Gold Top Dog
    One comment about herders:
    Think of the way some dogs herd:

    My BC Joy, like all borders lay low, work from a distance, and give the eye while circling. Ooops! The ewe escaped! Time to get confrontational. Corgi's are low to the ground to avoid cattle kicks, and nip at the heels. I'm not so sure about other herders. Also, I never consider GSDs herding dogs, since they've lost almost all herding instinct and very rarely are they seen in herding trials or tests.There **are** some GSDs who have herding titles tho.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Gina is right on with her post. 
     
    Sighthounds, too, vary as far as temperment-ability to work independently, problem solving skills, aloofness, how they course, what they course, etc.
     
    Rhodesian Ridgebacks are considered sighthounds, but they don't have the same aloofness as a pharaoh hound, nor the same stamina as a Saluki, nor the same issues as an Azawakh. 
     
    Temperment within any broad spectrum of "type" is going to vary for a reason.  Certain dogs were bred for certain things.  Mixing them to create designer dogs such as the "doodles" and "schnoodles" and the "canis panther" doesn't really accomplish much other than create income for the "breeders." 
     
    Right now there are issues within the Silken Windhound community because of a specific genetic trait, I think it is the MDR1 gene.  This is a gene tied in with the out crossing to Shelties/Collies in order to re-create that "long haired whippet" that so many have found to be attractive. 
     
    Why take the chance?  Or am I missing the question behind your post? 
    • Gold Top Dog
    its the difference between breeding genotype or phenotype, right? instead of breeding the purebreds together, you're breeding two different breeds that LOOK the same and have the same jobs....
    so .. opinions from breeders or anyone with experience?


     
    I agree with others. No dogs from two different breeds would look the same or have the same jobs. If we compare a border collie and a cane corso doing a herding job, border collie will be a good at herding sheeps, goats, or any small livestocks. It would not be a good at herding cattles or "bigger" livestocks. It is because they lack in strength and they bred for speed and agility. A cane corso will make an excellent herding for cattles or any big livestocks that require more strength to fight the BIG animal off. Just like rottweliers were bred to herd cattles into slaughter house so that farmers can slaught them.  If I were to compare a cane corso to rottweiler, the only similar they have are that both are dominant breeds. If I look in their temperaments, they are WAY much different.
     
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    without beating the dead horse i wont mention the pound puppies and health disorders plaguing purebreds because we already know about all of that anyway,
    my question was hypothetical. i already made it clear that i hate dog clubs with a vehement passion and dont see a point in them other than preserving history and ancient useless ideals that "Pure Breds are Better" which they are not....
    Dog breeding and Dog Showing should have little to do with each other. and the reasons abound - mainly because we didnt have these genetic SNAFUs until dog shows and closed registries came about.
    Dogs must adapt to the changing needs of society, they have done so since the day they accepted man as a leader, but in this century dogs are not being allowed to adapt and change to meet our needs. when they do change they are called unacceptable impure useless mutts and have no right to pass on their genes. Why not? Those poor waifs are the suvivors while their blue blooded brothers are doomed to painfuly slow deaths in the show ring. And health problems effect ALL dogs, yes. there is no breed excempt from it, i dont care how reputable the breeder is. some breeds have been distorted so badly that its just a prerequisate that your shih tzu is going to snort and snore, your english bulldog wont give natural birth, and may have to have its tail removed due to it trapping poop in it, unless you want to wipe its butt for the rest of its life. Irish Wolfhounds have short lifespans for several reasons.. the larger the breed the shorter the lifespan, why is that? why do people accept that? Anyway i'm not expecting answers to THAT question because there are no answers. people just have to decide what they want to do.


    I am very familiar with the different positions stock dogs focus on. But you can train a BC to heel or head, you can also train BCs to work cattle, goats, sheep, or any other livestock that is "Afraid of the big bad wolf".
    How would crossing a Sheltie to a BC effect wether or not it prefers to head or heel? All the stock men i know dont normally work more than two dogs at a time, sometimes they use only one dog depending on the size of the herd and that one dog does both jobs as well as singling out an individual. Ever watched "A Man and his Dog"?
    The only personality clash i can see is maybe crossing a drover with a herder..... which is why i didnt mention the drover breeds when i listed the herders.
    OK, so if Rottweilers are drover dogs, does that mean that they cannot fetch or gather livestock, only drive it?No, all dogs considered of droving descent can be used to gather livestock. Likewise, herding breeds, like border collies can also be used to drive stock. BUT the drover breeds are larger and must work on their own with a complete stranger, in order to bring the stock to market... so yes there is likely to be a definate personality clash by crossing the two.
    The GSD still herds in his native country, but yeah they arent as popular as they once were in the herding field. I'm not quite sure why either. There are other breeds designed to protect a man and his property... the soul purpose for the Doberman so i've read..... as well as some mastiffs - which i will address shortly. the GSD is a farely recent creation too...  and no i dont mean within the last thirty years. i mean in refference to dog clubs. They came about in 1890-something. Many Mastiff breeds existed centuries before that and are one of the breeds that has adapted to what mankind calls progress. They are far removed from "War Dog" status, if you are referring to the Romans and such.
    I know Europe has a rich war filled history, but once the warring was through and the frontiers were tamed, the mastiff settled down as a "Ban Dogge" -meaning they were chained during the day and then released at night to guard the estates. They werent something the common man was allowed to own, along with some sight hounds, because obviously if he had such a dog in his posession then he obviously stole it, not to mention the common man could hardly feed such a brute. the common man also didnt have game and property to protect from poachers. So the mastiff types are man stoppers from the start(but not the finish as most are big sloppy faced pillows now)
    The problem i see with mixing mastiffs would be if you mixed, say, a Neo with an English. Neos are still old world dogs, they are high on the dangerous dog list because they are still high caliber guard dogs in their native country.. that wont last much longer since they have been added to the AKC. But anyway, a Neo and an English would have the unstable temperment because the higher level of aggression in the Neo. You wouldnt know which dog was going to develop into what. But what about an English and Bull Mastiff? Do people still use Bull Mastiffs for protection and guarding? Someone from another forum asked that question once and NO ONE could answer. All the breeder websites we found had only show dogs.

    Now, onto something else.... Breed looks come about due to climate and terrain. Rough coats, short coats, wirey coats. But it was never so uniform as it is today. Why does it matter if your dog is black and tan or saddle backed? the colour has little to nothing to do with personality and functionality so why are breeders so bloody hung up on making them uniform in looks? So you can tell them all apart? Why? you SHOULD know what your dog is bred for....
    I always wondered what would happen if several Dobermans got loose at the same time..... would the handlers be able to catch their own dog? How could they be sure its their dog? i know you get some characteristics to tell them apart, but really.... sorry just a funny scenario.
    Some people attend dog shows when they are thinking of buying a new dog. They have a specific purpose in mind and what better place to shop for a dog than going to a dog show? Its like buying a car. Do you want a V8? Do you want 4 wheel drive, do you want a luxery sedan or a two seater hot rod? Do you want an over protective home guardian, or a friendly social running companion? Do you need a small inside dog with a calm personality or do you want a high strung field dog to help you track game in the field?

    I disagree with the statement about scenthounds. But only because i have spent half my life hip deep in them. I've worked with blue ticks, black and tans, red bones, walkers, and beagles. The leggier hounds were all the same in temperment and personality, though the blue ticks seemed to have a slightly more laid back personality when it came to tracking alone, but once they were in a pack situation they always gave in to the excitement. The only thing i found that effected their attitudes was when you took one away from the pack. They are truly unhappy creatures then. Even if you raised it as a puppy without it ever having been in a pack they still dont seem to act right.
    Now, the hounds i mentioned above were developed in the US, their common ancestors were the Fox Hound and a couple of other European pack hounds. Beagles hunt rabbits(but sportsmen over here like to use them for deer as well- i dont know why.. such a tall animal being chased by a short legged beagle seems kinda silly, but the beagles are good at trailing them),  The other thing i find fascinating is the difference between show beagles and working beagles. my dad is a beagle fan. but not a single one of his beagles looked anything like the ones prancing around the show ring. For the most part they resembled these Beagles of Yore - [linkhttp://www.wdhs.org.uk/Beagles.jpg]http://www.wdhs.org.uk/Beagles.jpg[/link]
    but there is usually an obvious visual difference between working dogs that actually work when compared to the same breeds that are merely for showing. The purpose of the beagle, really, was so people wouldnt need a horse to go hunting. they could follow their dogs on foot, but beagles are quite capable of keeping up with horses i'm sure.
    Along with the short leggers you also have the Bassets, but good God, the American Basset hardly looks able to do anything. i KNOW there are some who would prove me wrong, but Eurpean working version of the bassets (to name two Basset Artesien Normand [linkhttp://www.thebreedsofdogs.com/BASSET_ARTESIEN%20_NORMAND.htm]http://www.thebreedsofdogs.com/BASSET_ARTESIEN%20_NORMAND.htm[/link] and Basset Bleu De Gascogne[linkhttp://www.pedigreesearch.co.uk/breed_guides/breed_description.asp?breed=bassetbleudegascogne]http://www.pedigreesearch.co.uk/breed_guides/breed_description.asp?breed=bassetbleudegascogne[/link]) although the bassets started out as an oddity, they were made into a breed, faced several hardships and near extinction, there were some offshoots of the basset that are now extinct, and the working bassets i meantioned above are rarely seen outside their own country, oddly enough (or should i say, not surprisingly) because this breed has been allowed to interbreed and had infusions of new blood- since the 1950's - its said to be a very healthy character, though he's starting to fall victim to the usual joint and back problems you see with other short leggers with long backs.

    Terriers are an interesting group but they are pretty much share the same attitude of gameness. yes there are leggier terriers, but not as many as there are short leggers. infact many of them look the same anyway... skye terrier, sealyham, scottish. Norfolk, and Norwich... ok i dont really want to name all the dogs in the group....
    Terriers are another working breed that should not have a standard for looks. looks meant nothing to someone with a plague of rats. Looks didnt mean anything to someone who wanted to rid themselves of that pesky lamb killing fox.
    Again thats why i asked a hypothetical question like this. not to give someone the impression that i am going to mix breeds together, or suggest that others do the same. i didnt ask only to be reminded of homeless dogs. i wanted the opinions of breeders who know their history but are also open minded to ask these kinds of "what if" questions.




    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Cane Corso

    its the difference between breeding genotype or phenotype, right? instead of breeding the purebreds together, you're breeding two different breeds that LOOK the same and have the same jobs....
    so .. opinions from breeders or anyone with experience?



    I agree with others. No dogs from two different breeds would look the same or have the same jobs. If we compare a border collie and a cane corso doing a herding job, border collie will be a good at herding sheeps, goats, or any small livestocks. It would not be a good at herding cattles or "bigger" livestocks. It is because they lack in strength and they bred for speed and agility. A cane corso will make an excellent herding for cattles or any big livestocks that require more strength to fight the BIG animal off. Just like rottweliers were bred to herd cattles into slaughter house so that farmers can slaught them.  If I were to compare a cane corso to rottweiler, the only similar they have are that both are dominant breeds. If I look in their temperaments, they are WAY much different.




    ok you missed it completely. Cane Corsos are not in the herding group.
    I dont have a doubt that they would make good drovers, i dont know much about the Cane Corso however.
    The last time i saw border collies herding anything (in person) was at a Farmer;s Exposition and the collies were herding steers just like you would see them herding sheep.

    And yes some sight hounds are different, i was just reading an article about Grey Hound/Salukis and some opinions that they're genius dogs, and other opinions that the mix or anything having to do with saluki blood is a complete waste of kibble and time because the dogs are absolute idiots. [linkhttp://www.lurcher.fsnet.co.uk/page9.html]http://www.lurcher.fsnet.co.uk/page9.html[/link]
    But both breeds hail from different regions. yes the greyhound was origionally a dessert dog, but he's been out of place for quite a while. according to that article the Saluki and GH started out as the same dog. But like it was said about Salukis in another thread.... they dont have much urge to please anyone but themselves.... i dont know this from my own experiences with them, but i've heard this comment several times by people that know the breed well.
    The reason i didnt address the sight hounds in my last post is because there's no point. I dont expect a lot of you to know anything about lurchers or even approve of lurchers. But that is a massive community with hard core fans and dogmen. its akin to Agility and people "creating" new breeds JUST for agility, which is silly but, to each his own. i would rather see people making dogs to hunt rather than making dogs to fetch tennis balls...[8|]
    • Gold Top Dog
    i already made it clear that i hate dog clubs with a vehement passion and dont see a point in them other than preserving history and ancient useless ideals that "Pure Breds are Better" which they are not....


    Well I guess that means you have your mind made up and you're just on a soap box here.

    I vehemently disagree with you about pure-breds being better for certain things.  You'll never find mixes in numbers that hunt by sight like sighthounds, nor will you find mixes that have the scent discrimination that a bloodhound shows, nor will you find consistent temperment like the mals, giant schnauzers, or BRTs to do police/paramilitary/border work, nor will a mix point like a pointer or retrieve like a retriever will consistently do.    You will find the occasional dog that can perform these tasks at the same level.

    If you want proof of success, look at Saluki.  There are cave pictures dating over 20,000 years that show these dogs, almost in the same type that they have now. 

    In no way do I demean the mixed breeds, but for the most part they weren't bred for a purpose, they are the result of "oops" litters, irresponsible breeding, and bad practices.  This doesn't make them any less of a companion, but if I'm on the trail of an escaped convict, I don't want to have an undetermined mix leading me, I want a bloodhound.  If I'm hunting rabbits I don't want a GR mix, I want a sighthound.  If I'm driving cattle I don't want a terrier mix, and if I'm guarding the DMZ I don't want a lab mix.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Xerxes

    Right now there are issues within the Silken Windhound community because of a specific genetic trait, I think it is the MDR1 gene.  This is a gene tied in with the out crossing to Shelties/Collies in order to re-create that "long haired whippet" that so many have found to be attractive. 

    Why take the chance?  Or am I missing the question behind your post? 


    Funny you should mention the Silken Windhound. i only found out about them when i was researching herniated disks in dogs.  i dont think i have that article anymore.... but it mentions something about Silken Windhounds and a certain back problem. i had never heard of this breed before so i looked them up. All i can find is that they are the recreation of the Borzoi but in miniature. Borzoi's resulted from collies being crossed with sight hounds so they could handle the harsh russian winters.. but that is the extent of knowledge about either one.

    I assume that if someone was going to "IMPROVE" a breed they would be sure to have healthy stock to begin with.
    Anyway, so far i am answering my own questions... but i'm having fun anyway. [;)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Xerxes
    Well I guess that means you have your mind made up and you're just on a soap box here.

    I vehemently disagree with you about pure-breds being better for certain things.  You'll never find mixes in numbers that hunt by sight like sighthounds, nor will you find mixes that have the scent discrimination that a bloodhound shows, nor will you find consistent temperment like the mals, giant schnauzers, or BRTs to do police/paramilitary/border work, nor will a mix point like a pointer or retrieve like a retriever will consistently do.    You will find the occasional dog that can perform these tasks at the same level.

    If you want proof of success, look at Saluki.  There are cave pictures dating over 20,000 years that show these dogs, almost in the same type that they have now. 

    In no way do I demean the mixed breeds, but for the most part they weren't bred for a purpose, they are the result of "oops" litters, irresponsible breeding, and bad practices.  This doesn't make them any less of a companion, but if I'm on the trail of an escaped convict, I don't want to have an undetermined mix leading me, I want a bloodhound.  If I'm hunting rabbits I don't want a GR mix, I want a sighthound.  If I'm driving cattle I don't want a terrier mix, and if I'm guarding the DMZ I don't want a lab mix.



    I'm wondering if i type too much and overwhelm people so that they only read PART of what i write and THEN reply.

    At what point did i suggest mixing terriers with collies to herd cattle?? Yeah i mentioned the collie/spaniel because he was an oddball.. two completely opposite breeds doing the job of another completely different breed. but i wasnt suggesting that as a mix. part of what i said was 
    That's just weird behaviour for EITHER breed in my opinion..... herding is one thing... but trying to retrieve a hog? so yes i know personalities can go in all different directions with some mixes, but what about the group mixes?
    GROUP meaning Herding GROUP, or Hound GROUP..... not two dogs from sepperate groups. I am going for consistancy of GROUP not just mixing breeds.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: DumDog






    ok you missed it completely. Cane Corsos are not in the herding group.
    I dont have a doubt that they would make good drovers, i dont know much about the Cane Corso however.


    No, I think you misunderstood me. I never said that cane corso is in a herding group,  I considered it in a working group, but there's no question it belongs to molosser group. We do not know that for sure yet because it is not recongized by AKC yet. I know a lot about cane corso and their history. They were bred to hunt, herd, and protect their livestocks in Italy.

    CC was used to stop Bulls from attacking the farmers while they were trying to ccastrate Bulls'
    balls. They would bite the Bull's nose and try to throw him down the ground. There were no drugs to make bulls sleepy. Farmers depend headly on that dog.
    • Gold Top Dog
    That may be due to the limited number of C courses (boundary courses) and large flock trials.... I know a number of GSDs who herd and work on ranches with flocks over 500.  GSDs were developed to herd in urban areas and move flocks to common grazing (much like the belgians).  There is plenty of instinct left in GSDs  you just have to give it the opportunity to make itself known.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Herding is about strength of "will" not brawn.  There are plenty of 30 pound BCs handling cattle.
    • Gold Top Dog
    What mrv said.  GSDs are not meant to be drovers...they're tending dogs.  If the Shepherd needs the dog to move the flock, of course they can move it, but for the most part, the GSD is meant to be a living fence, not a drover.
     
    SO, what happens if you take a BC and cross it with a GSD? 
     
    Traits of the BC:
    The eye
    Low stationed herders
    Drovers (I believe, please correct me if I'm wrong)
    "Wispy" in build
    "Manic" in their work
    Protective instinct = low
     
    The traits of the GSD:
    Tending dogs
    Gait with heads up/stand tall
    Protective
    "Thick" build (compared to the BC anyway)
    Serious, but not "manic"
    Highly calculated thinkers
     
    So, you cross a GSD with a BC, and you could get a dog with misplaced aggression (protection issues), a dog that either has too much eye, no eye at all, or has eye and doesn't use it properly (there's a dog fight waiting to happen), a dog that just doesn't know WHAT to do with itself and will pace itself into the ground, a dog that could have all sorts of conformational issues....not to mention all the health issues that can cross back and forth.
     
    Hybrid vigor is a load of bunk as far as I'm concerned.  Crossing breeds does NOT ensure a healthy dog...you don't just cross good genes.  HD runs in ALL lines and breeds of dog, so crossing breeds doesn't decrease the chance of your dog getting HD, crossing two breeds that have high rates of torsion doesn't improve the chances your dog won't torsion, crossing two breeds that are known to have heart issues doesn't improve your chances of avoiding a dog that dies of cardio.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Well I guess that means you have your mind made up and you're just on a soap box here.


    Ed...totally right on with this statement. I don't even think it's reserved to hating clubs...but I sense a general dislike of the purebred dog and those who breed them. In which case...this person and I have little enough in common that further discussion is likely pointless. I am actually getting reminded of an ex member with these posts.