Dog Community

Okay...was he lying about the breeds?

Posted : 12/19/2006 8:00:18 PM

Okay. The more I look at the new puppy, the less I believe that the guy selling them was telling the truth about the parents. He said they were boxer/amstaff. He had a male boxer and a female staffie with him, but he had a couple of other dogs too (all of which were, from what I could see, bully breeds) and he could easily have been lying about the parents.

The dog he claimed to be the mother looked WAY more like a pit than a amstaff to me. In fact, I'm pretty sure she *was* a pit...I only got a quick glimpse of her, but I still don't really think that she's amstaff. He also used "staffordshire terrier" and "AMERICAN staffordshire terrier" interchangeably, so I don't know which of those he was claiming the mother to be. Again, she looked like an APBT to me. I have a feeling that he was just using any word he could think of other than "pit bull" so that he wouldn't discourage people from buying these puppies for their kids for christmas. I thin he may have been counting on the fact that the people there wouldn't know what a staffordshire terrier was....but that's all just speculation. The dog he claimed to be the father was definitely all boxer.

The pups in the litter were dark brindle, fawn, and a reddish color..similar to the color of a reddish boxer, but with ticking. A couple of them had white markings on their chests and toes, but overall they were solid colors.

I *definitely* believe that this pup is mostly pittie/staffie. When he smiles, he has a very pittie smile. He also LOVES, even at this age, to grab things in his mouth and pull. When he gets really into pulling on something, I can pick up that object and he'll hang from it by his mouth until I put him down. Everything in his mannerisms and facial expressions say pittie to me. It's the boxer that I'm questioning...I keep looking at pictures of boxers his age and I just don't see it at all. I've also looked at boxer mixes, and in those puppies, the boxer was still evident...and it's really not in him.
The biggest red flag I see is that he has a double coat. Off of the top of my head, I can't think of any bully breeds with double coats. There has to be something else in there causing it.

So, what do you guys think? Boxer/staffie or Pittie with a little bit of something else? I know he's awfully young (not quite 5 weeks) to judge, but I'd appreciate any opinions/ideas on him.

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Posted : 12/19/2006 8:30:23 PM

Pit Bulls and Staffie are the same thing. The differnce is that one is bred for gameness and one for show.

Mikaela Ritter

Posted : 12/19/2006 9:00:06 PM

I thought they were two different breeds? American Staffordshire Terrier and American Pit Bull Terrier...only the Staffy is AKC reg. At least last time I read up about em that's what I found out, though maybe it's changed by now and people just consider them the same thing...?

Ratsicles

Posted : 12/19/2006 9:00:44 PM

I always thought that "Pit Bull" was just an inclusive term for the APBT, Staffordshire terrier, Amstaff, Bull Terrier, etc...but that they were all seperate breeds. [&:]

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Posted : 12/19/2006 9:02:58 PM

well its a sticky subject.....
The original dogs came over from the British Isles in the mid to late 1800's and were then called "Bull and Terriers" or "Bull Terriers". The dogs were used for everything from herding to hunting to babysitting and, yes, fighting. There were probably some crosses made to other breeds but no one knows. By 1898, a group of sporting "dogmen" wanted to keep pedigree records and so the many families of Pit Terriers (also called Yankee Terriers) were recorded and continued as mainly working dogs. By the 1930's, a group of men wanted to show their dogs in AKC conformation so petitioned AKC to allow the dog to be registered as the American Bull Terrier. By this time the white Bull Terrier people had a lot of power in AKC and refused to allow another Bull Terrier so the breed was accepted as the Staffordshire Terrier. About the same time in England, the descendents of the original dogs were beginning to be registered with The Kennel Club as Staffordshire Terriers also, although the breeds had diverged and looked a bit different.

All went along until the late 1960's when enough of the British dogs had been imported to petition for AKC recognition. Since the breeds were no longer the same, the English dogs were admitted as Staffordshire Bull Terriers and the American dogs had American added to their names. (The Bull Terrier people weren't so powerful then.) This became official in 1972.

So now there are 3 breeds who are from the same genetic stock, the American Pit Bull Terrier, the American Staffordshire Terrier and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier. The owner of UKC felt that all dogs from the same stock should be registered as APBT's and always allowed this. AKC keeps closed stud books so that only dogs from AKC parents can be registered. The breeds came from the same background but the old lines of APBT's that have not mixed in AmStaff do look a bit different. And there is no way to tell bloodlines genetically so only pedigrees and what traits are bred make all any different. So while they are different, they're the same. But all 3 breeds make wonderful companions.

zsrg;lb ksr'pfjsoprej dfsg;va bjpskopa]

Posted : 12/19/2006 9:28:17 PM

There are even more, there is a yankee terrier, regualr stafforshire, english staffordshire, its crazy!

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Posted : 12/19/2006 9:30:10 PM

A bull terrier is differnt though, they are the spuds mckenzie dog from the 80's with a egg shaped head

Lynn

Posted : 12/19/2006 9:55:18 PM

That was a very good explanation of why the names and looks are so similiar. Thank you for taking the time to explain that so well.

rwbeagles

Posted : 12/20/2006 12:16:12 AM

and the Staffordshire Bull Terrier

The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is most definitely a separate breed with AKC and UKC.
You cannot register an Amstaff or APBT as a Staffordshire Terrier. Just wanted to clear that up.
Very different...much smaller breed.

willowchow

Posted : 12/20/2006 12:45:54 AM

Honestly, he reminds me of a bull mastiff pup I watched a few years ago. Same face, especially in the dark muzzle with some wrinkles in the second to last picture. And, the color is exactly the same as that pup was. Maybe he's got some of that in him.

Ratsicles

Posted : 12/20/2006 1:11:43 AM

Sheprano, thanks so much for the explanation! I definitely didn't know all of that.

Willowchow,....wow. I really think you're onto something with the Bullmastiff thing. I googled "bullmastiff 4 weeks" and came up with this:
[linkhttp://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=bullmastiff+4+weeks]http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&q=bullmastiff+4+weeks[/link] .
Those puppies look EXACTLY like him. Then I checked out this page:
[linkrev=/images%3Fq%3Dbullmastiff%2B5%2Bweeks%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D]http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Tgirls5wks1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Bullmastiff_Puppies.htm&h=435&w=438&sz=32&hl=en&start=9&tbnid=CEsOZXmP26unKM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=127&

rev=/images%3Fq%3Dbullmastiff%2B5%2Bweeks%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D[/link]>http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Tgirls5wks1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Bullmastiff_Puppies.htm&h=435&w=438&sz=32&hl=en&start=9&tbnid=CEsOZXmP26unKM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=127&

rev=/images%3Fq%3Dbullmastiff%2B5%2Bweeks%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D]http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Tgirls5wks1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Bullmastiff_Puppies.htm&h=435&w=438&sz=32&hl=en&start=9&tbnid=CEsOZXmP26unKM:&tbnh=126&tbnw=127&

rev=/images%3Fq%3Dbullmastiff%2B5%2Bweeks%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D[/link]

All of those puppies are the EXACT colors of the puppies in that litter. The dark brindle color, fawn, and this pup: [linkhttp://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Starboyside.jpg]http://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Starboyside.jpg[/link] is the EXACT reddish color I was talking about, with the darker saddle on his back and everything...that color had me really perplexed because I had never seen it in boxers OR pitties. Wow. Those bullmastiff puppies look *exactly* like his littermates. They even have the same markings...a little white on the chest and a white toe or two.

The only difference I see is that these puppies have more wrinkles in general than he does...but then again, not all of them do, like this puppy: [linkhttp://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Tgirls5wks1.jpg]http://www.sunrayzbullmastiffs.com/Tgirls5wks1.jpg[/link]. She's got about the same wrinkle level that my pup has now...and there were a couple of pups in the litter who were slightly more wrinkled than my boy.

The other thing that speaks volumes to me is that bullmastiffs also have a double coat! There's just no way he's boxer/pit...those breeds don't have double coats.

From what I'm looking at right now, if I didn't know better, I would be inclined to say that he's a Bullmastiff. But why on earth would this guy lie about that? Why would he claim that the puppies were mixes, if he could get away with calling them purebred and possibly make more money? It just doesn't make sense to me. But wow, given the looks of these puppies...they have to be bullmastiff, or at least bullmastiff mixes.

But again...why the HECK would he lie about that? This is just too weird. [&:]

Luvntzus

Posted : 12/20/2006 1:44:20 AM

If I remember correctly, dogs can be dual registered as AmStaff and Pit Bull with the UKC.

Liz

Posted : 12/20/2006 1:44:37 AM

My thought is maybe they really don't know who the father is...??? Sometimes, if purchasing a dog, they bluff the breed/s to get more money out of a "higher value" dog. American Staffordshire Terriers are AKC dogs, as are Boxers, so they might have thought that that made it sound better or something.

I don' tknow, adorable pup though! Congrats! [

]

Mikaela Ritter

Posted : 12/20/2006 1:49:54 AM

You know, that's funny, cause it did occur to me that he resembled a Bullmastiff at one point but I never thought much of it cause you knew who the parents were (supposedly at least [&:]). It would explain the double coat. I don't think he's pure though, he'd have waay more wrinkles and a much stumpier snout. Mastiffs are the ones with longer noses, Bullmastiffs have got the pushed in thing going on, which I don't see at all in the little Butterball, unless thats a trait that will become more obvious later when he's out of the generic puppy look stage. He does have pretty small feetles too, which I'd think is more of a Pit than a Bullmastiff trait. I don't really see any Boxer in him to be honest, and you'd think if they did at least one of his littermates would have the characteristic boxer white markings, which you said they didn't. I would venture a possible guess at Bullmastiff/Pit?

Luvntzus

Posted : 12/20/2006 1:55:35 AM

His head shape doesn't look like a Bullmastiff to me. From the side it almost looks Shepherd and that would explain the double coat/coloring (the black muzzle and "beauty spot" beside it). It's possible that the guy doesn't even own the father of the litter! Based on how irresponsible he is, a wandering male could have gotten in and mated with his female.

I think Dulce has a good point that the man may not even know who the father is. He's probably just assuming or saying that it's one of his males, but it could very definitely be a different dog- a wandering Shepherd or even mixed breed.