Collies and Shelties

I think it's all due to the original breedings and what they were looking for.  One thing you'll notice is that the head structure isn't the same.  The collies seem to have more sighthound in them with the longer thinner nose.  The Sheltie also has a different frame underneath all of that fur.  You would expect a Sheltie, if it follows form with the Collie, to have a much deeper chest than it does.  That doesn't seem to be the case.
 
However the coats are very very similar.  I think that's due to the selective breeding programs across the world.  Since there are breed standards, the breeders select those dogs with the desired coats and do not breed from sub-standard coated dogs.  This doesn't eliminate sub-standard coats entirely, but does reduce the gene pool for the sub standard coated dogs.
 
I think it's a mathematical game, once you come down to it.  The goal is to get rid of undesired traits.  Those undesired traits can be things such as genetic illnesses or hereditary conditions: HD or any of the myriad of joint problems or it could also be a sub-standard coat.  If there are less of those genetic markers in the breeding program, then there will be less of those "defects" in future litters. 

Shelties and collies came from different stock originally - they've been bred to look more like each other over the years.  But originally shelties looked more like the Nordic spitz type dog they were, while show collies and Border collies came from the same type of herding dog (the collie dog) and there was no difference in looks.

Here is a link to Linda Rorem's wonderful family tree of British herding breeds.  Note the seperate origin of the two sheltie and collie strains with later interaction between the two to bring the resemblance closer.

http://izebug.syr.edu/~gsbisco/ftree.htm

Enjoy!

The exact origin of Shelties isn't known..they are not, however, breed down from collies (which is what EVERYONE thinks).
 
   "Is that a minature collie?"
   "No, it's a sheltie. There is no breed called a minature collie." I hear this practically everyday (or at least weekly!)...haha []
 
Shelties were later breed with collies to make them look more collie like. So now breeders have what they call the "collie throw back gene" and this is were you see the oversized shelties. They can happen in any litter (even the best of the best breeders). This is why I have a 19 in Sheltie that weighs 43 lbs and my normal sheltie boy that is 14in and weighs 20 lbs!
 
If you look at their faces their very different. A sheltie face has a "stop" where the muzzle meets the area below the eyes (meets like an "L"). The collie is straight slope.
 
Oh, and the Shelties first were called "toonies", and then "Shetland Collies", and then it was changed to "Shetland Sheepdog"

The Collie profile does have a stop as well.  "In profile view the top of the backskull and the top of the muzzle lie in two approximately parallel, straight planes of equal length, divided by a very slight but perceptible stop or break. A mid-point between the inside corners of the eyes (which is the center of a correctly placed stop) is the center of balance in length of head."   Whereas for Shelties it reads Cheeks should be flat and should merge smoothly into a well-rounded muzzle. Skull and muzzle should be of equal length, balance point being inner corner of eye. In profile the top line of skull should parallel the top line of muzzle, but on a higher plane due to the presence of a slight but definite stop.

They do bear a slight resemblence, but even temperamentally they are completely different dogs.  (And when I tell people I have Collies, they ask if I have the "standard" or "miniature".  [:@])
[linkhttp://oascentral.akc.org/RealMedia/ads/click_lx.ads/www.akc.org/roadblock/1545094843/Right/default/empty.gif/34346338356233313434363933653830?][/link]

ORIGINAL: brookcove

Shelties and collies came from different stock originally - they've been bred to look more like each other over the years.  But originally shelties looked more like the Nordic spitz type dog they were, while show collies and Border collies came from the same type of herding dog (the collie dog) and there was no difference in looks.

Here is a link to Linda Rorem's wonderful family tree of British herding breeds.  Note the seperate origin of the two sheltie and collie strains with later interaction between the two to bring the resemblance closer.

[linkhttp://izebug.syr.edu/%7Egsbisco/ftree.htm]http://izebug.syr.edu/~gsbisco/ftree.htm[/link]

Enjoy!

Linda has always done great research!

Linda is awesome!  It's weird but I was born and lived for twenty years just a few miles from where she is in Pacifica, CA.  I'd love to meet her someday.

when I tell people I have Collies, they ask if I have the "standard" or "miniature". 

Yeeearrrrrggghhhh.  And the puppy millers and backyard breeders just perpetuate that misconception.

Do you know there's been some reports of "mini BC" breeders? [sm=eek.gif]

Not only is Linda's website pretty good, her shelties can HERD.  One judge offered a compliment on the strength of her dogs herding capabilities.  He stated, "Linda's dogs are so good, they could herd hogs".  High praise for a breed that has lost a lot of instinct and power over all.

oops! Sorry..didn't realize the collie stop! I can see it on your dog's profile on your avatar.
 
Are people surprised that collies come in smooth coated? I've only seen then once, at an agilty show I went to.
 
We had a rough collie that came into the kennel I used to work at that the owners had us shave!

We had a rough collie that came into the kennel I used to work at that the owners had us shave!

 
OMG why? Im dying for Lizzie's coat to grow in, I couldnt dream of shaving it off. Thats why Collie's come in Smooth, a shaved Rough will look just like that: like a Shaved Rough Collie, it wont look like a smooth.
 
By the way SheltieGirl, which of your Shelties is the oversized? It must be big at 43 pounds! Lizzie will probably weigh about 60, and its not much of a difference.
 
Im curious because Ive never heard of big "oops" Shelties

haha..."big oops" shelties are really common actually. I've meet a few! Yeah, it's my 43 lb one that is oversized (Casey). She's 11 now. Diego is only 20 lbs and that's as big as he'll get!
 
Some Shelties are undersized. Diego was the runt and the breeder thought he might be undersized (we just go them as pet quality anyway so it didn't matter).
 
Under/Over can occur!
 
So what is a collie tempermant like? I'm curious what the temp differences are?

oh, and Casey has a large fatty tumor under her front leg. Imagine a soccer ball cut in half (that's the size of it). So that accounts for about 7-10 lbs according to the vet. So maybe she's around 35 lbs if she was w/o it. I think that's what she was in her younger days.
 
It doesn't hurt her and it doesn't interfer with her walking too much. She runs and frolicks with Diego. She's actually in really good shape according to the vet.
 
So, in reality, she's only 3 inches and 15 lbs above the standard!

Well Ive only had 1 Collie in my lifetime, so I will tell you how she is. Lizzie came home and she was perfect [] She followed DS around the house and where he stopped she lay down. The only bad habit she had was that she wanted to chew on his pacifiers.
 
In the 4 months that i've had her she has gone through various difficult stages, though none that werent puppy behaviors. She went through a stubborn stage in house breaking, wanted to herd DS, was resistent to training.
 
Now at 6 months she is doing very good. Nice and laid back, she prefers sleeping at my feet and getting a good grooming then playing. She is completely housebroken (the resistant stopped practically from one day to the other) and she no longer herds. Lizzie is so smart, she learned various behaviors in one session and even without treats she is following consistently.
 
The only thing is that she is outside during the day, and because we dont have a yard she is constantly barking at everything, and is a BIG escape artist. We will soon be moving to a house with a large yard, and Im sure she will calm down at this point.
 
But all in all she is great. I thought that by getting a herding breed I would have to work work work with them, and that she would be bouncing off the walls, but she is sweet, even tempered and mellow!
 
I think shes a Basset Hound in a Collie body!
 
How are your pups?

Isn't it funny how breeds in the same so-called "Group" can be so different?  And breeds with different origins can look so similiar (Collies and Shelties, BCs and Aussies)?  It shows how breeding for a particular purpose sets phenotype so strongly.  I was looking at pictures of Border collies from the beginning of the breed - though their appearance hasn't been regulated by a written standard of any kind, they still look the same.  That's almost 150 years with no change.  I'd never really thought of that before.

I personally think its good when breeds exhibit little change throughout the years. Collies a hundred years ago were smaller in build (much like a BC) IMO  and had much less coat. I dont like such drastic changes.
 
Brookcove: Have you ever come across pictures of Merlin? Im sorry but I think he is one UGLY dog and a poor representative of what a BC should look like. He looks fake...lol