German Shepherd vs Doberman Pinscher

All these crazy designer breeds out there.... someone needs to breed a GSD with a dobe and deveolpe a dog that is the perfect combination of the two... GSD with the sleek coat of a doberman and a docked tail... LOL...

I don't know how temperament compares but to me a Beauceron kinda looks like that....has a tail though but I suppose you could dock it if you wanted.

Wow... that's a pretty dog. Too bad they're not popluar and would be pretty hard to find.

Oh well.....

I was performing my daily grooming on Greta this evening and all the hair... all the hair... made me think doberman again, lol.... that short hair is looking really good right about now.

GSDs do shed like crazy for sure. If you can find one with a "close coat" though, it isn't nearly as bad. These coats are shorter, "tighter" to the skin with less undercoat. Similar to the coat some Mals have actually.

 I don't think Dobes and GSDs are all that similar. Sure both have been used for some similar work but GSDs herding background gives them a bit of a different temperament from the general working breed dog. Both are nice breeds and very devoted, it just depends on what you want :)

mehpenn

someone needs to breed a GSD with a dobe and deveolpe a dog that is the perfect combination of the two...

Dear lord, I hope that never, ever, ever happens.  I'm w/Agile, I don't see GSDs and Dobes as all that similar.

Beaucerons are beautiful, and I'm "still" learning about them as a breed.  I respect and appreciate them as an individual breed.

miranadobe

mrv - I know this was originally about Dobes vs GSDs, but since you brought up Belgian breeds... I went to a Belgian Shep event this weekend and even in this collection I continued to see what I've seen at many other dog events.  Tervs and others (Belgian Sheepdogs) who were great in practice, then put them under "pressure" in the ring and they lost their edge.  They seemed nervous, more concerned with the surroundings, lost focus on the handler, slowed down everything while they appeared to go to their "safe place" mentally.  While not completely shut down, they were shall we say "introspective" once they were in the ring.  Nervous, careful, slow to respond, looking all around the venue, etc.  I've never seen a Malinois do that...

Is this to be expected?  Is it just coincidence?  They all seem so sweet, but what an average person might describe as nervous and scared.    Sadly, I have yet to meet a confident, outgoing Terv.  Again, the Malinois I've experienced are sooo not like this.  I thought the two are related and differ mostly by coat?  How can temperament be so seemingly diff? 

I would not make assumptions about temperament without considering how the dogs were socialized and trained.  Dogs that go to a "safe place" are often the dogs that are waiting for the next shoe to drop, so to speak.  If they are in a new venue, it's like a new training situation.  You have to wonder if they are trying to figure out if a correction is coming, perhaps because they are unsure if the cues mean the same thing in this new environment.   A person who is used to training GSD's might be too harsh on a Malinois and the dog's reaction will have less to do with temperament and more to do with his sense of fairness, a quality which dogs seem to possess.  Also, herders often need more acclimation to novel stimuli when they are young, and on an ongoing basis, than some handlers provide.

I'm concerned that no matter which method one uses, there is a tendency to go too fast for the dog's level, and to put winning above conscientious training.  Breeders may also be doing something that is changing the breed tendencies, for whatever reason, and those changes come with consequences as we all know.

spiritdogs

I would not make assumptions about temperament without considering how the dogs were socialized and trained. 

Well, of course not.  It's the reason I asked questions if it was a coincidence that my observation of the Belgian Sheps & Tervs in Obed competitions I've attended across the country has been so oddly consistent.  I have no idea of each individual's lines, nor their individual training methods.  The other Tervs and Belgians I've met in casual environments (a family member, two associates, the rest being strangers) have been the same - very sweet, if a little high strung, lots of prey drive, but nervous and anxious with the slightest "pressure" (odd noise, loud voice, etc).  Again, the Malinois I've seen working are not like this at all, aside from the prey drive and what one could call high strung (coincidence?).  You could figuratively put them in a tree house or a zoo or a nursing home and their performance is consistently "ON".  I like to ask questions of those who have owned, lived with, and trained these breeds over several years (like mrv & Agile, etc) because they have a more balanced understanding of temperament consistencies than some casual observations.

I've never owned or lived with a Malinois.. but I do have a K9 cop friend who went from a GSD to a Malinois to a GSD... he complained about the Malinois all the time, said it was harder to get him to focus... he said after that experience he'd never handle another one.

Many working Malinois have an extreme level of prey drive.  To me, intensity to the level of obsession is not the same as power.  In general, often the GSD is more of a "thinking" dog and shows more raw power and aggression even though the Malinois is very flashy and intense.  Most times when I'm watching a Malinois do bitework it looks really nice and correct but I don't feel afraid of that dog, they make me smile and giggle and I'm jealous of the control/secondary obedience but don't go, "wow I would cross the street for that dog!".  Even a halfway decent GSD shows raw power and courage, at least to me.  Many depts prefer one breed over the other for many reasons.  Both dogs have a strong visual presence.

Actually I think some working line GSDs' prey drive is as strong as the mal's - the difference (and it's a noticeable difference) is the speed and that's what makes the mals look so good. When I do escape bites with GSDs, I more or less know when they are going to launch and can get ready right before they do so. With mals I just never know. Sometimes they will launch when they are three or four yards away me. Other time, they will take off from a good ten yards away, just hurl themselves at me like they were shot out of a cannon, with zero regard for their own safety. The speed, quickness, agility of these dogs is really astonishing.

But as for power and fight, I still prefer the GSD.

 

Regarding belgians and gsds as working canines.  Ok likely to offend here on numerous levels.  So respectfully,  gsds are far more forgiving of handler errors than belgians.  The "on" of high strong drive dogsmay also be explained as reactivity.... Yup belgians are reactive, it is part of what makes them belgians.  What is even more important is what happens AFTER the reaction.  Many mals (mine included) quivers when in a new situation.  Folks misread this commonly as fear, nope just the overflow of the dog holding in all that excitement and energy prior to a command.

While I love K 9 dogs and handlers, there are issues with programs that reward senority of handlers over talent.  K 9s do NOT have to be loose cannons, many are, both mals and gsds.  The idea that agression has be controlled with e collars (and I am not saying that e collars do not have a place in training), is very dated.  Check out Steve White and Shelia Booth.  I would love to attend one of their seminars and when live settles a bit I will.

 As to not finding mals intimidating check out this link.  http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4x5l7_hommage-a-jorkan-de-la-chapelle-st_animals

 As you watch, notice the difference between being off (playing),  doing something just physical (the jumps) and then the control and discretion during the defense of objects.  Remember this dog's handler is out of site and ear shot.  He is working on his own.  Look at the dog when seated near the horse, he is ready but will not act until commanded.    This young male titled very fast in Europe and was highly respected.  Some of his get are in the US at working line kennels.  He died young of a suspected intential poisoning.

 mrv, how are mals and shedding? I cannot stand hair...i really like the loups du soleil dogs, but not sure if i would ever get a mal...just curious at the moment.

RidgebackGermansShep

 mrv, how are mals and shedding? I cannot stand hair...i really like the loups du soleil dogs, but not sure if i would ever get a mal...just curious at the moment.

Thank you, Meg, for this question.  I was wondering the same thing...

My TD's competition Mal has a coat very similar to my Kenya, tighter and not as plush as some GSDs but still sheds and gets the white clumps a few times a year.

mrv

Regarding belgians and gsds as working canines.  Ok likely to offend here on numerous levels.  So respectfully,  gsds are far more forgiving of handler errors than belgians.  The "on" of high strong drive dogsmay also be explained as reactivity.... Yup belgians are reactive, it is part of what makes them belgians.  What is even more important is what happens AFTER the reaction.  Many mals (mine included) quivers when in a new situation.  Folks misread this commonly as fear, nope just the overflow of the dog holding in all that excitement and energy prior to a command.

 ITA with this. Two of my black dogs quiver too and I often get the "are they scared"? Both dogs are actually very sound -  sudden noise/movement/etc never ever worries them in the least. They just get a bit too...enthusiastic when we first get to new places. Belgians don't have to be and shouldn't be overly sight or sound sensitive.But they are different from GSDs too. They are IME quicker thinking and quicker to take action than GSDs tend to be. Which is probably part of the reason why they aren't as forgiving of training mistakes.

 

mrv

While I love K 9 dogs and handlers, there are issues with programs that reward senority of handlers over talent.  K 9s do NOT have to be loose cannons, many are, both mals and gsds.  The idea that agression has be controlled with e collars (and I am not saying that e collars do not have a place in training), is very dated.

   So true! Our K9s always used to do public demos until about 9 or so years ago. They had two new, young GSDs and brought them out to do a bitework and narcotics demo at a local charity dog event. One was around 2 and the other just over a year old. The year old one did the narcotics work just fine. Then it was time for the bite work demo with the 2 year old. I noticed right away that the dog was wearing an e-collar and thought "wonder how this is going to go". The dog would not out. And when I say he wouldn't out I mean not at all. One officer was using the e-collar and the dog didn't even seem to notice. Both officers ended up having to choke the dog off the decoy and then wrestle the dog away from the decoy, while the dog continued to grab the decoy where ever he could. They had to then drag him to the cruiser while he was fighting them every step to get back to the decoy. Once he was in the cruiser he remained totally agitated the entire time they were there and they didn't bring him back out. It looked very, very bad. And to top it off, the officers were explaining to the crowd before the demo that while their old dogs were trained to back and hold, these new ones were trained by someone else to bite and hold. So the message the public got was that these dogs were trained to bite first, ask questions later and the officers had little control over them once they bit. I don't blame the dog at all and don't think he was a "bad dog" - I blame poor and likely very hurried training.