German Shepherd vs Doberman Pinscher

Outing street bites is such a loaded topic, some people believe it is necessary and others (mostly LEOs) say absolutely not, the dog must always be "manually" outed from a street bite or good simulation because when sent, his job is to continue biting and holding.  My understanding is that if a dog is sent, it is sent to bite (similar to when an LEO fires his weapon, he fires to kill), so good bark and holds aren't really realistic or useful on the street.  Not that this excuses poor and rushed training, but I think often the public can't really understand what is appropriate for a street K9 just based on a few demos and often make unfair judgments.

Intact mailnois shed heavily twice per year and some are loath to give up their coat.

As to bite work and working street bites, a dog needs to be responsive to handler PERIOD.  A dog that will bite  (I saw one k -9 left in the restroom of my work place nail a policeman who was not aware it was in the room for a break) must have an out and an OFF switch. BCs are not the only ones who need one.   I have seen dogs that will not out in training and handlers that really did not have a strategy other than use the e collar (been at trainings, Nora is well loved by the locak K9 handles, they want her cerified as a drug dog)  .   While I have no problem what so ever with a dog that bites and bites hard when sent,  I do not want a loose cannon.  The dog needs to out and to turn off when sent.  There is a chance there was an error when the dog was sent.  It is critical that the dog will turn off when commanded.

The link I provided showed exactly what is possible with training.  Granted this is  sport dog versus a working canine, however, the natural resources officers who trains with the local group has the same kind of control.

Granted the public does not understand working dogs.   I admit to novice status myself.  I can however attest to the need for control.  It MUST be there.  It is part of the meeting the public trust.

 Wow has this been a major hyjack.

BTW Beucerons are not for the novice trainer or weak of spirit, far less biddable.

Control/secondary obedience and outing are not quite the same though.  For example, recalling a dog that was sent is far different from commanding an out.  A dog absolutely must be able to stop and recall when sent in case it was sent in error or the suspect is giving in or was already apprehended.  But the mindset of the dog is different when actively engaged in physical confrontation than when in the process of being sent.  Even the best street dogs may have days where they need a hard out, especially if sent into a real fight where someone is screaming and fighting back.  It's so hard, if not impossible to really simulate street bites that involve physical confrontation with the dog.  More often you see or hear of dogs that give up or pull off the jacket and stand their ripping at the jacket while the suspect flees or draws a weapon than issues because a dog was sent to bite and required a hard out.  I think there's more issues with nerves in dogs than the outs.  Of all the issues a police K9 could have, requiring hard outs on real street bites should not always be a deal breaker.  On the flip side, it all depends on WHY the dog won't out.  This can be indicative of nerve issues and is not always an issue of lack of control or poor training.  It's important to look at the dog's behavior when it decides not to out.  Is there still an active fight happening or is the dog just gnawing and tugging at the sleeve or clothes?  You see so many GSDs at the Sieger shows doing the latter when not outing, these dogs have major temperament issues irregardless of their training or control.  Likewise the auto outs or falling off the sleeve or suspect is not OK either, the dog needs to stay in the fight with active aggression.

Liesje

Of all the issues a police K9 could have, requiring hard outs on real street bites should not always be a deal breaker. 

 The issue was not simply that the dog had a poor out - the dog took several more bites at the decoy, after having been choked off before they could get him away. Then had to be wrestled/dragged by two officers back into the cruiser. The dog was so overstimulated afterward that he could not be taken back out of the car after the demo for the the Q&A session. I understand that it is a fine line because you need the power, aggression and intensity for the job but this just didn't seem appropriate - there has to be some amount of control, at least once the dog is outed (regardless of how the out occurs). FWIW I believe this dog also ended up being retired at a fairly young age without much being publicly said. The other dog was a nice boy but I never saw him do bitework.

I guess I need to clarify my concerns.  I am of the belief that a dog must be controlable by the handler on the other end of the lead.  I dont mind a mistake or a manual out.  I do not mind a tough dog that is not safe enough for demonstrations and crowd work.  I get that.  I want a dog and handler team that communicates well enough to get the job done efficiently.  I realize that a call off and an out are different, they do both demonstrate biddability which is required for a compentent team regardless of the situation or work at hand.

I have seen first hand some teams where the handlers do not have much experience and the dog is getting the better of them in training.  I have also seen "naturals".  Yes you can teach folks the skills of training but there are some that are better than others.  Systems that focus on senority dont always end up with the folks who have the art as well as the science. 

I do believe and hope to see greater emphasis on strong training programs and better selection methods for both sides of the team.

mrv

I do believe and hope to see greater emphasis on strong training programs and better selection methods for both sides of the team.

I totally agree with you here.  I'm now training Schutzhund at a police station with a K9 unit so it's sort of a combo of SchH people and people with police dogs that come out and ask us to simulate this or that, or we have one police chief who trains with us with her detection dog but is training Schutzhund as well.  Before seeing the dogs, handlers, and training I always had this very glorified view of anyone who trained or handled "K9s" but now the more we see and do it firsthand, the more it's obvious that K9 work is really no different than Schutzhund, agility, or rally - there is always a HUGE spectrum of the quality of dogs being trained, the handlers, and the trainers/training.  Sometimes I get defensive about it because the police are often putting on these demos or police Olympics and when something goes wrong *that* is how the public or those unfamiliar with this training tend to evaluate the breed and the work. To be honest I don't even know how to respond to a dog not outing and then continuing to rebite and not chilling out when taken away.  Could be a crappy dog, a crappy handler, piss poor training...who knows, but I certainly would not take the worst case scenarios as examples of how one breed works vs. another.  I do think there overall could be better selection of dogs, trainers, and handlers because unlike stuff like rally and agility, the K9 teams are often asked to put their lives on the line to protect and serve. But just the label of being a K9 handler or trainer by itself I don't think necessarily brings any authority or credibility.  I hear all the time, "Oh, but my uncle/neighbor/grandad/friend/etc trained police dogs..." but sadly that isn't really any indication of the *quality* of the training, handling, or the dogs.  I think people that have a gift with dogs just have that gift whether they are a K9 trainer, a Schutzhund competitor, or a pet dog trainer.  Many people get into the K9 programs but do not have any experience.  Some may find out that they do have that gift with dogs but others not so much.

I know a lot of people who have been happy with German Sheperds, but I grew up with a doberman.

Generally, they're a good breed. In recent years they've been bred with bigger dogs making the breed taller, but they're not supposed to be so big originally. Shorter hair, yes, but mine shed like crazy!! He had a health problem which made it fall in clumps for a while, but even when that got better he still shed a lot.

Dobermans are not born with docked tails and ears fyi. We didn't crop his ears or dock his tail because we thought it'd be mean, but his tail was so long and bony that he often whipped himself and us with it. Looking back maybe docking his tail would've been better.

Mine lived to be thirteen. Pretty average, but with all his problems the vet never exoected him to live that long. I don't know if his problems were truly typical of the breed or if they were just him. Training wise, my parents never tried when I was little and once he was no longer a younger dog he had no interest in learning. He wasn't bright at all, but very loyal. Dobermans are guard dogs. My current dog, a standard poodle, will bark an intruder's ear off, but Tobie would charge if he thought we were in trouble. He only attacked one person, and got pepper sprayed.

Good luck with your research

I'm thinking about Standard Poodles too... we currently have a toy poodle, and I love the breed. How would you compare a Doberman vs a Standard Poodle?

Well, my Doberman wasn't very bright. If you didn't exercise him he'd do random things to relieve his energy. He'd pull clothes off the laundry machine and chew on shoes. Hermione, my standard poodle is equal in energy, but more constructive with releasing it. She'll climb our swingset to bark at our neighbor's dog over the fence, put her paw in an ajar door to get inside the pantry, and other things. She's more of a watch dog. She'll bark an intruder's ear off and she doesn't shed at all. My doberman shed like crazy and bit the leg of a repairman.

I like both breeds, but do find them very different. I will have to say that I much more prefer Malinois over either breed. I will bring up a topic and hope not to offend, but many of the belgians now are AKC registered and are not actually working dogs. They are sometimes bred for conformation and looks rather than the mind and ability of the dog. The 2 non registered dogs I have are from extreme working lines and there is a world of difference in them and my "show lines" dog.

They are not for everyone, but I do find them to be faster thinkers and faster to react. I have a 4 month old female who is tracking, trailing, air scenting, and on cadaver work and is just amazing. However she is an absolute handful and can be snippy. I have never worked with a smarter breed, that can figure things out on their own. They are super fast, but needs tons of handling and training, and need a job!

I have never owned a poodle, but worked with several at the clinic and loved them!

Actually, the first belgians in the United States were show dogs... Initially they were recognized as the Belgian Sheepdogs and the only variety in the beginning was the Groendahl.  Then came the Terv followed by the malinios.  Lakens are the lastest arrivals showing up primarily in the 80's and 90s.

It seems Mals and GSDs have the same "split".  It's not necessarily Am. bred vs. imports, but working vs. show.  My Schutzhund helper has an American bred Malinois that is his competition dog, he competes nationally with him.  Definitely not a show dog.  Same with GSDs, there are some awesomely bred working ling GSDs in the USA, in fact I've heard of some breeders importing TO Europe.  I looked at several working line breedings in Europe, mostly Belgium, for my next GSD but am getting a dog from Illinois.

Liesje, yes that explains it better. What about Dutch shepherds, has anyone here dealt with them much? I know nothing about them, the PD has one that came in from germany last week. Hasn't had any training yet though.

Liesje

It seems Mals and GSDs have the same "split".  It's not necessarily Am. bred vs. imports, but working vs. show.  My Schutzhund helper has an American bred Malinois that is his competition dog, he competes nationally with him.  Definitely not a show dog.  Same with GSDs, there are some awesomely bred working ling GSDs in the USA, in fact I've heard of some breeders importing TO Europe.  I looked at several working line breedings in Europe, mostly Belgium, for my next GSD but am getting a dog from Illinois.

 It is a bit different than GSDs actually. Partially because a number of the working line Mals are not actually purebreds, partially because some of the "working" breeders are breeding for an extreme dog that is not really historically correct for the breed and partially because there are a lot of breeders trying to make a quick buck selling working bred Mals. Someone in my area has a rescue Mal out of a working police dog and an imported bitch, the entire litter of 10 puppies ended up at the shelter then in rescue. You don't tend to see that sort of thing with GSDs very often (well bred working line litters in rescue) but it isn't all that uncommon with Mals. I believe there is another working bred litter in rescue now. It's really sad :(

 Now that isn't, of course the case with all working bred Mals - there are breeders out there selecting for sound working dogs and breeder who stand behind their dogs. You just have to be extra careful about researching lines, breeders and temperaments.

  FWIWI have met some working bred Mals who IMO could finish in the AKC ring, which is not nearly as competitive as GSDs. Of course, when I told someone who had a bitch from Micheal Ellis that she could finish in AKC she got mad at me ;)