Dobe or Beauceron?

Beauceron.Akita.Golden

 And someone mentioned cost of finishing a CH on a beauceron vs a dobie...and i can say that would depend on where you are!  I cant imagine how much ive spent on Tessa already, and for only 1 point!  Why?  Because there are NO beaucerons showing around here!  Im in TX (houston area) and weve been all over TX, LA, and OK, and only one show in OK that even had another Beauceron!  Next year we're looking at possibly going to GA and CA, as thats they only way she'll ever finish!  So while you have not have the politics of the dobie ring, depending on where you are, you may spend just as much or more with travel expenses to get competition!  

 In a less common breed it is very important to communicate with others about where there will be entries. And even with having to travel, your chances are much greater of being able to finish your own dog in a reasonable number of shows. With Dobes, to get a major you have to beat anywhere from 10 - 20 dogs (and that is just for a 3 point, it can be as many as 41 for a five point!). I couldn't find a list of point schedules for the whole country but Beaucerons look like you have to beat about 3 or 4 dogs for a 3 point major and about 6 for a 5 point. While it is certainly far easier to get 10 Dobes together than it is 4 Beaucerons, your chances of winning against 4 dogs is much better than against 10.

Liesje

 MRV, would Ivan Balabanov or Michael Ellis' Malis cut it in the show ring?

 It is extremely hard to find any stacked pictures of working Mals to really evaluate them. The biggest issue with the working Mals and the show ring is many look like mixed breeds (and many are). If you had a working Mal that really was a purebred Mal and had that decent structure, you could most likely finish the dog. I unknowingly offended an agility person once when I told her that her working bred Mal could finish wiothout a problem in AKC. Come to think of it that dog may have been from Michael Ellis. There are very few Mals being shown, even compared to the other Belgians. There is someone in this part of the country with working line Mals that finishes them and are sometimes the only ones showing. Of the Belgians, I'd say Mals are the easiest to finish in AKC and along with Laekens, the hardest to finish in UKC.

 Long story on how i got the GSD...she is from a litter my mom bred (mother German/ambred cross) father is an import from Status Quo.  Not a breed i ever thought i'd own....long story LOL

 As for points on a beauce Agile, yes, its 2 dogs for 1 point, 3 dogs -2 pts, 4 dogs-3 pts, 5 dogs-4 pts, and 6 dogs- 5 pts...and i am on all the Beauce Yahoo groups, and DO stay in contact with other Beauce owners/breeders......but staying in touch doesnt do any good when you cant get anyone to come any closer than Georgia!  Yes, it does help to atleast know where you will have others, but it is costly to have to travel for every show.  Even when we did go to OKC to show year before last, we drove up there knowing we had a 3 point major all 3 days, but a breeder pulled after finishing their dog, so as it was when Tessa did win that sunday, she only got 1 point, so yes it is frustrating and costly to drive 11 hours to a show, and still only get 1 point...I do understand what you are saying about the politics in the dobe ring,and yes it takes alot for a major but depending on where you are wanting a beauce, atleast you have competition just about everywhere with dobies!  Its great practice at first, but it can get frustrating constantly taking BOB because you are the ONLY in the breed! LOL

 Cool.  My male GSD's father is Markus vom Status Quo.

As to Ivan's not likely,  but Denise's  Tervs from Sprite do, as do Kadi's Dantero malinois.  We have a number of active dual purpose hobby breeders in the ABMC.  You may not see those dogs winning a national or international trial for working dogs, primarily because their owners truly live up to the idea of multi purpose dogs.  There is only so much time in a day.

You will also see mals dual titles dogs  from Nora's paternal pedigree.  Van Balderlo and Baiser du Orageux   Belgium and France respectively.

http://users.skynet.be/van.balderlo/Photogallery.html;  and from Claire Du Pre's  Baiser du Orageux  http://vbo.belgians.free.fr/  and Liz Richardson's Sabrefield from the UK.  Her dogs were some of the most talented and at one time, the most frequently used dogs for their k 9 services.  She is not breeding as much now.

So yes I know a number of folks who have owner handled malinois to AKC championships and to titles in Sch, FR and Mondo ring.  Oops forgot to add the Debbie Skinner has used Ivan's dogs and of course Jona Decker  Malinut.  http://malinut.com/

mrv

So yes I know a number of folks who have owner handled malinois to AKC championships and to titles in Sch, FR and Mondo ring.  Oops forgot to add the Debbie Skinner has used Ivan's dogs and of course Jona Decker  Malinut.  http://malinut.com/

 Jona Decker is also a good person to talk to about Laekens. I have always admired this Mal breeder for breeding versatile dogs: http://www.carouselmalinois.com/ 

Beauceron.Akita.Golden

 Even when we did go to OKC to show year before last, we drove up there knowing we had a 3 point major all 3 days, but a breeder pulled after finishing their dog, so as it was when Tessa did win that sunday, she only got 1 point, so yes it is frustrating and costly to drive 11 hours to a show, and still only get 1 point...

  How frustrating! Did the breeder who pulled tell anyone that she was pulling? I certainly have had that happen before with the Belgians, although I live in Belgian land so we at least don't have to go real far for shows.

 Kansa is actually who I'm "planning" on if I do go with a Dobe (which is definitely probable).  This is Quint - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFCd742-V8I&feature=PlayList&p=2D7097800C8A0BC8&index=0&playnext=1

I've been thinking about a Gio baby.  I've seen a few of them (not in person, though) and was really impressed with most.  I've also been in contact with Sho Me Dobes.  I actually spent a couple of days with her red male Hector, but my male and him didn't work out (they were doing very well together for a while, but they had a disagreement about something and that was that).  I adored that dog!  Gorgeous Trotyl son, and such a sweetheart!  I so wish it would have worked out...  But, I found out that I should go with a little girl instead of a boy (even though I really wanted another male).  I didn't get to meet Kenya, but from what I heard about her she seemed like quite a dog.  I seriously considered a pup out of Kenya's litter, but I'd hate for the pup not to work out in schutzhund.  I want to get the best of both worlds, but my main priority is schutzhund.  I'd LOVE that Gio red boy, but I'd hate for it to not work out with my male (even though he's neutered and all).  Honestly, I think that if I got a male puppy, they'd end up being completely fine together, because Rafe is generally very accepting of other dogs and has played with other intact males just fine (GSDs), but I don't want to take the chance. I also checked out the Ascomannis and vom Zenhof litters, but I'd really like a little more conformation in the mix.  Oh, and I <3 Bruno, but again, not the best dog conformationally. 

Mals and Dutchies were my 3rd/4th choice.  I've always loved Dobes, and would love to get in there and try to bring the breed back to what it should be.  I think the breed as a whole is WAY too focused on conformation instead of what they were actually bred for.  Just my opinion.  And I've always liked the Beauceron's looks (especially the harlequins - I like odd patterns and looks, I guess).  I haven't done much research on them really.  What are the Leakenois coats like?  Are they rough (like a terrier-type coat?  Or something like a poodle-y coat?)?  They're pretty interesting.  

I haven't found out much on the Beauceron front (at least as far as finding a working Beauceron that is also harlequin).  Seems like most of the working breeders like sticking with the black and tans.  I'll keep looking around, though.  :)

We're also now looking at the possibility of moving to Florida in a few months (new job), so puppy things will be put on hold if that does happen.

Thanks, all, for all the info and suggestions!   

 There are very few breeders in the US that breed harlequins, my guess would be because you dont want to breed harle to harle, so its much easier to just stick with black and tan....I cant imagine what a downfall it would be if you had two fabulous dogs that complemented each other beautifully but you couldnt breed them because of their color!~

Workingdoglover

  What are the Leakenois coats like?  Are they rough (like a terrier-type coat?  Or something like a poodle-y coat?)?  They're pretty interesting.  

 Laekens have rough, terrierish coats but maybe not quite as thick and harsh as some of the show terriers. Most like a wire coated JRT than say a Welsh Terrier. They have a range of coats types though from ones that almost look like Mals to ones that are have a lot of thick hair. Their beards aren't really enough to be super gross, which is something I always consider with hairy faced dogs. I really, really had my heart set on getting Laeken as my next dog but they aren't easy to find in the US. You can kinda see the range in these pictures of the coats:

 There are also Picardy Shepherds and Briards. I have seen a couple sites of European breeder who work their Briards but haven't come across working Picardys. Briards have gross beards...

I don't like wirey dogs but for some reason have always loved the Berger Picard.  I wonder if they could do SchH?  You can show them and Dutchies in UKC.

Workingdoglover

 Kansa is actually who I'm "planning" on if I do go with a Dobe (which is definitely probable).  This is Quint - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFCd742-V8I&feature=PlayList&p=2D7097800C8A0BC8&index=0&playnext=1

I've been thinking about a Gio baby.  I've seen a few of them (not in person, though) and was really impressed with most.  I've also been in contact with Sho Me Dobes.  I actually spent a couple of days with her red male Hector, but my male and him didn't work out (they were doing very well together for a while, but they had a disagreement about something and that was that).  I adored that dog!  Gorgeous Trotyl son, and such a sweetheart!  I so wish it would have worked out...  But, I found out that I should go with a little girl instead of a boy (even though I really wanted another male).  I didn't get to meet Kenya, but from what I heard about her she seemed like quite a dog.  I seriously considered a pup out of Kenya's litter, but I'd hate for the pup not to work out in schutzhund.  I want to get the best of both worlds, but my main priority is schutzhund.  I'd LOVE that Gio red boy, but I'd hate for it to not work out with my male (even though he's neutered and all).  Honestly, I think that if I got a male puppy, they'd end up being completely fine together, because Rafe is generally very accepting of other dogs and has played with other intact males just fine (GSDs), but I don't want to take the chance. I also checked out the Ascomannis and vom Zenhof litters, but I'd really like a little more conformation in the mix.  Oh, and I <3 Bruno, but again, not the best dog conformationally. 

I didn't realize Trotyl produced working dogs...that's cool, i LOVE his head. I'm probably not a good person to talk to though, i really don't know too much about working breeders. Kansa is about the only one i personally know of who is trying to put CH and sch titles on the same dog. I think i mentioned i like Cara and bell'lavoro which i do they think they show some, but focus on working. I think there is a workign dobe forum out there, but i'm not sure what the name of it is.

 Thanks for the Laeken info.  :)  They look really cool!

 Trotyl has produced some dogs that are doing schutzhund work, so I thought I'd try him out and see how things went.  He was an older boy, though, so I think that's part of why things didn't work with my dog.  I didn't get to take him out to the field to see what he did, so I can't say much there.  I'm betting there are some nice Trotyl babies out there that could work, though.  This girl specifically - http://www.kansadobe.com/kia.htm ;)

I've been on the working dobe forum, too (usadobermans.net) and check it out pretty often.

Workingdoglover

 Thanks for the Laeken info.  :)  They look really cool!

 Trotyl has produced some dogs that are doing schutzhund work, so I thought I'd try him out and see how things went.  He was an older boy, though, so I think that's part of why things didn't work with my dog.  I didn't get to take him out to the field to see what he did, so I can't say much there.  I'm betting there are some nice Trotyl babies out there that could work, though.  This girl specifically - http://www.kansadobe.com/kia.htm ;)

I've been on the working dobe forum, too (usadobermans.net) and check it out pretty often.

Oooh Kia is a very pretty girl!!! LOVE Trotyl.