Dobe or Beauceron?

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    Dobe or Beauceron?

     So, I've really been researching the Doberman (I've had one before, but he was a BYB dog and not exactly the best representation of the breed, though I loved him!), and have found several good breeders.  I still have a few issues, though...

    I want a dog that I can both show in conformation and work in schutzhund - definitely NOT a common thing in the Doberman breed...  I found a breeder that combines Euro and American lines and does well will those dogs in the show ring, so if I do decide to go with a Dobe, they will be my breeder.  They're planning a breeding with a Euro line bitch (gorgeous girl, should be SchH1 titled by the time the breeding takes place) to Quint v Edertal (very nice SchH3 dog).  Of course the breeding is tentative, but if all goes according to plan the pups would be amazing for schutzhund.  I'm just worried that the possiblity of show dogs from this breeding would be very very slim...  : /

    Another thing bothering me is the overall health of the Dobe.  I mean, breeders can do all the testing they want, but some things just can't be tested for.  Even testing for cardio isn't really helpful (it obviously tells you if there is a problem at that time, but a dog tested clear now could die of cardio in a few months).  And cardio is everywhere!  I just don't want to put so much of my life into a dog and then have them taken from me at 5 or 6.  :(

     The Beauceron has always interested me, but I've never met one and they're so rare that there aren't many breeders to pick from.  I do believe that this breed would be good for my needs of competing in the show ring and schutzhund, however.  Also, from what I've read, they're fairly hardy dogs without many health issues (hip dysplasia being the biggest problem).  If I'm wrong on any of this, please correct me!  If I do get one, though, I'd want a harlequin, and apparently they are a more rare color (most people have the black & tan).  

     

    Maybe I just like making things difficult for myself...? ;)  Any tips or information would be great.  :)

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    As far as SchH you can't get any better than a nice GSD.  Most of the other breeds are more reactive, don't have the same fight drive.  But I may be biased.... Wink

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    Liesje

    As far as SchH you can't get any better than a nice GSD.  Most of the other breeds are more reactive, don't have the same fight drive.  But I may be biased.... Wink

    The SchH trainer I worked with even wrote an article many years ago about why he felt Dobes aren't stable enough for SchH....

    *however!!!!*..... watch some Ascomannis or von Rubenhof Dobes in action....  Plus one of my all-time favs was Koby vom Aurachgrund.  *sigh*... such an impressive dog.

    Workingdoglover
    I want a dog that I can both show in conformation and work in schutzhund - definitely NOT a common thing in the Doberman breed...

    - then you may be impressed by THIS dog.... (look at the tabs under his picture,even though it's old info).  Google their name and check Dobe forums,... the Bell'Lavoro Dobes have been coming on conformation and working sports.  Amanda/Bevo's mom should be able to tell you more about specific breeders.  In all honesty, the Dobe conformation competition is *tight*, so successfully campaigning a Dobe to Ch and beyond can quickly exceed an average budget (like mine), so I admire from afar. lol

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    I also vote for GSD. It would seem the most logical way to go ... Smile

    There's just not a lot to choose from when it comes to working line Dobie or Beauceron in this country - certainly not compare to working line GSDs. With GSD, you can afford to be choosy and find a pup whose pedigree really catches your eyes. With Dobie and Beauceron, you probably just have to go with the best the few breeders offer.

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    P.S. - are you on the Working Dog forum yet?  Bet there are enough opinions on this subject over there to go around....

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     The Beaucerons I've met have been really, really nice dogs. They were all conformation dogs, and I've never seen one work, so I'm no real help. They do come in the REALLY cool Harlequin color, but they shed more than a Dobe. They seemed less aloof than most of the Dobes I know, but I don't know how accurate that is of the overall breed. Look for them, at dog shows. They're cool dogs!

     

     

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     Yeah, I know that going with a GSD would be the easier route, but I've never been one to want to do things the easy way...  ;)  And honestly I've just never been a big GSD person.  I really couldn't tell you why, either.  *shrug*

     

    miranadobe

    Liesje

    As far as SchH you can't get any better than a nice GSD.  Most of the other breeds are more reactive, don't have the same fight drive.  But I may be biased.... Wink

    The SchH trainer I worked with even wrote an article many years ago about why he felt Dobes aren't stable enough for SchH....

    *however!!!!*..... watch some Ascomannis or von Rubenhof Dobes in action....  Plus one of my all-time favs was Koby vom Aurachgrund.  *sigh*... such an impressive dog.

    Workingdoglover
    I want a dog that I can both show in conformation and work in schutzhund - definitely NOT a common thing in the Doberman breed...

    - then you may be impressed by THIS dog.... (look at the tabs under his picture,even though it's old info).  Google their name and check Dobe forums,... the Bell'Lavoro Dobes have been coming on conformation and working sports.  Amanda/Bevo's mom should be able to tell you more about specific breeders.  In all honesty, the Dobe conformation competition is *tight*, so successfully campaigning a Dobe to Ch and beyond can quickly exceed an average budget (like mine), so I admire from afar. lol



    I talked to Koby's owner a while ago, hoping for some puppies, but I don't think she's going to be breeding Koby anymore.  She has a Koby daughter (owned by someone else) that she may be breeding, but it will be a year or two still.  I absolutely love Chaos (her Koby son).  He's AKC pointed and I believe has his SchH3.  GORGEOUS dog.  I wish I could find a litter by him.  I told her to give me a call if he did sire a litter, but that's been a while ago, so who knows! 

     I like Gio, too.  Another big problem is that I really want a red, and it seems that most of the working lines are black & rust (most not carrying a red gene).  I really love the dogs at Swift Run.  Very good longevity in her dog Alex's line.  I absolutely LOVE her stud dog Showstopper.  I could have had the opportunity to have on of his pups out of a Rubenhof bitch, but there was only one girl in the litter and she wanted to keep a female (and I don't know how well my male and a Dobe male would work out when the Dobe matured).  

    Anyhoo...  I'm pretty much set on one of the "off" breeds.  I could easily have a very nice working shepherd as the trainer I work with will be having two litters coming up soon, but I'd really like one of the two breeds.  I just don't know which one I want...lol!

     

    ETA:  I am a lurker on the working dog forum.  lol, I think there I'd probably just get people telling me to get a GSD or Mal.  ;)  

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    I love showstopper. Also really like the Bell'larvo (sp?) dogs that Paige suggested.

     I personally am very interested in Kansa. Doug has been in the breed forever...and he knows what he's doing. They do schutzhund and show

    Kansa

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    I am not sure if there is a dobe breeder who is successfully breeding for both conformation & schutzhund. I have conceded that I will only have time to train in one venue, & I'm more interested in schutzhund than I am in conformation. Nonetheless, I've been trying to find a breeder who has dogs that can do it all.

    I really like the dogs from Kansa Dobes. They are conformation people but they are becoming more & more active in working dog sports as well. I know that they are actively trying to breed the "total dobe" instead of the watered down version that is so prevalent nowadays. I've talked to them on more than one occassion, & both Doug & Jacque are very knowledgable, as well as nice. They are very candid about what you can expect from their pups.

    If you are more into schutzhund with a possibility of being able to do conformation, then, IMO, you can't go wrong with Bell'Lavoro. Vicky is amazing. She knows her lines forwards, backwards, & sideways and she's very easy to talk with.  She's happy to explain what she is trying to improve with each litter that she breeds. She's candid about what her dogs can do & what you can expect from her dogs. I feel like, for a working dog breeder, she is very conscious of her dogs conformation as well. I have personally met two of Gio's pups, & I was blown away by them. The amount of focus, & drive that their handler was getting from them was mind blowing. (They were 3.5 months old at the time.) They are both nice dogs, but they are not show quality dogs. That said, their owner, who is also their breeder, tells me that she sent the best dog, conformationally, to a working home in Canada.

    You might also want to look at Wittrock Dobes. I know that Bonnie shows in the UKC, as well as working her dogs. I love Zzzzzaaron.

    I know that Ascomannis has a litter due this week. At least on paper, it should produce some fantastic working dogs. The sire is Bruno vom Wustensturm, whom I am in LOVE with.  He's only a Sch 1, but I've got no doubt that he'll end up with his Sch 3.  He recently failed his Sch 2 because he didn't out on the courage test.  He almost took down the 240 pound helper though, which, IMO, was VERY impressive.

    I also think that vom Zenhof has a litter right now that should have some very good working prospects.

    I also might look at Sho Me Dobes. She is a conformation breeder, but she has a bitch, Kenya, who is a South American import who could probably be that "do it all" dobe. I've met her a few times, & she is a high drive, firey girl. I really think that she might produce pups who could show & work.

    ETA:  I just saw that Paige linked, Gio.  He is up to a Sch 3 as well as being the first American bred dobe to pass the Korung. 

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    So what have you found out about Beauceron breeders in US? I'm curious to find out more about working line Beaucerons in the states.
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     Just from an AKC showing point I'd suggest going with a lower number, less competive breed. Dobes are one of the hardest breeds to finish, even if you have a dog from a top breeder and they very much tend to be a "handler breed". Not that owner-handlers can't win but it is even harder for them in an already super competive ring. Expense and time wise, a Dobe CH is likely to cost much, much more than a Beauceron CH.

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    After living with dobes for 25+ years and over 10 in belgians,  I am curious why the malinois did not make the list, but of course that is my bias.  At any rate, some of the best dual purpose dobes are those being imported from Europe,,, Nice type and to receive the validation for breeding there are temperment tests that include courage, discretion etc type exercises.

     Beucerons have been reported to be less "motivated" on occasion when they see no purpose in the exercise.  Not sure I want to work that hard.  I would prefer a more biddable dog overall.  I think that is one of the reasons the shepherds (german, belgian, dutch) excel  they seem to be more about the team work.
     

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    Malinois would be my second choice after GSD. I've heard the same thing about Beauceron and that they're not as eager of a worker as GSD or Mal. Don't know if it true or not as I've never seen one in person.
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    Workingdoglover
    I talked to Koby's owner a while ago, hoping for some puppies, but I don't think she's going to be breeding Koby anymore.  She has a Koby daughter (owned by someone else) that she may be breeding, but it will be a year or two still. 

    Loel is one of the coolest women.  When she competed with Koby at the AKC Working Dog Trial at Dobe Nat'ls in '07, I fell in love with Koby.  (WHO, btw, really really should have won at that trial, not taken 2nd.... ;) As I was gushing over Koby, Loel told me she was getting ready to breed her the next month if I was interested in a puppy, and we talked about her... oh, man, what an opportunity that would have been!  But I was leaving for Tucson in a matter of weeks and had no business taking on a dog like that at the time.  Koby is a beautiful girl and super nice personality, plus she had the best control on the field, imo.  I wonder what her daughter is like....

    BEVOLASVEGAS
    ETA:  I just saw that Paige linked, Gio.  He is up to a Sch 3 as well as being the first American bred dobe to pass the Korung. 

    Gio and Dean were at the same trial.  He's an intense boy, but he was one of the dogs who grabbed the bigger dumbbell off the rack, rather than retrieving the one Dean threw over the A frame.  He took first, of course, though... Tracy Gallagher was also there with Stormy, her Swift Run Dobe, who was a crowd favorite - they did really well in Protection- I think they took the highest scores.  I should see if I can find the disc w/the pics from that trial...

    Amanda, my trainer & her partner have three von Rubenhofs btwn them, the last two from Ascommanis Gero (owned by vom Zenhoff) and they've really enjoyed their dogs.

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    BEVOLASVEGAS
    He recently failed his Sch 2 because he didn't out on the courage test.  He almost took down the 240 pound helper though, which, IMO, was VERY impressive.

    The courage test in question (I can't view the video here at work, so I hope it's accurate and decent quality) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwGa1PjFtGg