"Blue" GSD's?

Luvntzus

I don't think there's any need to be defensive and like "so what". The OP was just curious. I know I've never seen a blue GSD and thought it was interesting.

Assuming blues are mixes can get people's backs up.  Again, I'm talking ONLY of GSDs.  I know nothing of labs and their genetics.  Maybe their blues are mixed, but blue GSDs have always been in existence.

Many people assume sable GSDs are part wolf, when in fact it's the most dominant color pattern and found in every "type" of the breed.

Just like GSD's, Greater Swiss Mountain Dogs also at times bare a "blue" or "red" from some the very finest lines.  These are pigment variations and are not show quality.  It is a natural by somewhat "rare" occurrence - it makes them less valuable not more and they are not show quality.  However, many lovers of the breed will take them as pets because they are neat looking.  I think that each breed has the ability to have colors not in line with breeding - nature is nature.

D is dominant full pigmentation and d is recessive, dilute pigment. So, in simple words, in order to get the dd dilute pigment, you would have to have each parent carrying a d gene. Since the dilute shepherd is not allowed, according to standard, they'd have a pretty good idea of the gene pool, with regards to that gene, after years of making sure they didn't breed dogs who were possibly carrying the gene. Any time it did happen, I'd think a reputable breeder would have made sure the parents, who produced the dilute, were spayed and neutered and any pups, from the litter, were as well, since any of them could be carrying the d gene.
So, what I'm saying, is that the chance of it happening with reputable breeders, I'd say again, is very, very slim. The likelyhood of this gene even being in the gene pool was very slim. Just as others have said, on another forum, it is very odd that all of a sudden these mutation colors are appearing all over the place, after years of breeding without them. ....some shepherd people included. However, in breeds that the standard allows the blue, you will have many more dogs carrying it, as the people are not worried about it being in their lines and so outcrossing to these breeds will get the gene in your gene pool. And as far as looking like the breed, that is very possible, as they've brought the gene in and then bred back again to their shepherds. I've seen dogs, that I knew for sure had more than one breed in them, that would easily pass as a purebred to john q public. And yes all should do their research, but those that are not quite as dog savvy, maybe thought they had done their research and done it well, but when dealing with people not telling truths, that is rather difficult for them.  

As far as the photos, from the link you gave, some of them come from a breeder who originally said she was breeding to get the old shepherd type back. However, now she says the dogs aren't supposed to resemble the shepherd in every way, because her dogs are not shepherds. They look like shepherds though and she has bred out to malamutes, according to her own words, and out to sarplaninas according to another source. These dogs are not AKC registered. So most of those photos, the blue included, are not AKC registered shepherds.

This breeder had in the past and probably still has a very large breeding operation. According to a statement that she has made, she had over a hundred dogs in her kennels, by the late seventies and produced dozens of litters a year. She still continues to breed experimentally after more than 20 years. What I'm getting at here is I'd take whatever this woman says with a grain of salt, being as, in my opinion, someone breeding that many dogs is a puppymill. You just cannot possibly give the individual attention that is needed for puppys and adults. In most definitions of reputable breeder, those breeding large scale are not included.

Found another shepherd breed as well, which most would say looks like a shepherd and the breeder has bred out to Malamutes, Akitas and other breeds, in order to increase size.

And yet another claiming to be a pure shepherd.
http://www.pandashepherds.com/photo_gallery
They don't look purebred to me, just as others on another forum have said. However, there are those that aren't as aware, as they aren't into dogs big time, they just want a special pet, who think they look pure. And the people selling them state that they are pure and even DNA tested, so the unknowing person buys the untruths. As for the DNA, on further reading, one will find it stated that it is proven that the dog is related to the original of this color. It does not say that it proves they are pure shepherds, which at this time, DNA tests cannot prove. DNA proves nothing for sure, more than who the dogs parents are. To positively prove anything further, they would have to go back every generation and prove parentage along the way. And so I still hold that I feel sorry for those that are taken in on these untruths and or trickery, when trying to buy a dog. And so I try to educate, whenever and whereever, as much as I can.

Even if any of these dogs are pure, a reputable breeder would not be pushing them and so no one would be discounting them, as being a reputable breeder, just because they produce a blue.

nymaureen

D is dominant full pigmentation and d is recessive, dilute pigment. So, in simple words, in order to get the dd dilute pigment, you would have to have each parent carrying a d gene. Since the dilute shepherd is not allowed, according to standard, they'd have a pretty good idea of the gene pool, with regards to that gene, after years of making sure they didn't breed dogs who were possibly carrying the gene. Any time it did happen, I'd think a reputable breeder would have made sure the parents, who produced the dilute, were spayed and neutered and any pups, from the litter, were as well, since any of them could be carrying the d gene.

It is not "not allowed" but a dog must have a black nose, so in that sense it is DQ'd or faulted, but not just because the dog is blue or liver.  I think it crops up even after years of breeding because it is recessive.  You'd never know you had it until the sire or dam was matched to another dog with the recessive and it was expressed in the puppies.   I don't think that a very nice dog that improves on other things needs to be taken out of the program for carrying the blue.  To me it's very similar to coated dogs.  Many, many reputable breeders still breed a dog that can produce a coated dog.  Dilutes and coated dogs are of course sold on spay/neuter contract and not to be bred, but the parents themselves don't necessarily need to be disqualified from competition and removed from the program.  IMO, the breed has a LOT worse problems than colors that have no effect on the dog's ability to work.

As far as the photos, from the link you gave, some of them come from a breeder who originally said she was breeding to get the old shepherd type back. However, now she says the dogs aren't supposed to resemble the shepherd in every way, because her dogs are not shepherds. They look like shepherds though and she has bred out to malamutes, according to her own words, and out to sarplaninas according to another source. These dogs are not AKC registered. So most of those photos, the blue included, are not AKC registered shepherds.

Are you referring to my photos or the OPs?  I will assume the OPs since of the photos I presented, one was bred by a breeder who is no longer breeding the dogs that produced the blue, the other is a dog from a rescue, and the illustration is from the illustrated standard.  Again, I'm sure it's easy enough to produce fake "blue" GSDs by crossing in other breeds but the blue is not even the most obvious characteristic of the dog not being pure GSD.

Anyone who is pushing colors is not breeding reputably, IMO.  Same for anyone crossing out to other breeds.  I don't pay much attention to those people/kennels, try to stay as far away from them as possible.  Improving on pigment is a different story.

 Heres whats called a "bluie", a diluted black, hes a pure corgi, but just like a "fluffy" or a "mismatch", they happen, but are not breed standard.

Liesje

I think it crops up even after years of breeding because it is recessive.  You'd never know you had it until the sire or dam was matched to another dog with the recessive and it was expressed in the puppies.   I don't think that a very nice dog that improves on other things needs to be taken out of the program for carrying the blue.  To me it's very similar to coated dogs.  Many, many reputable breeders still breed a dog that can produce a coated dog.  Dilutes and coated dogs are of course sold on spay/neuter contract and not to be bred, but the parents themselves don't necessarily need to be disqualified from competition and removed from the program. 

I agree 100%.  Since the gene is recessive it could stay hidden through many litters or many years.  The red swissies color gene is thought to be a recessive gene going back to the Greater Swiss Mountain dog's relationship to the Saint Bernard.  Way.. back in the beginning of the breeds inception.  In the GSMD breed they come along now and then and those dogs are spayed or neutered.   However the original breeding pair turn out champion dogs all the time. Like I said before in our breed community the blues are pretty rare but they happen and often out of very reputable lines and breeders. 

Even the recessive gene can come out in awkward ways.  Blue Swissie sometimes have blue eyes whereas the breed standard eyes are brown.  Sometimes breeders have a perfectly marked and colored swissy with one blue eye and one brown eye again, it is rare but happens.

OK, I just took a look at the breeder link in the OP.  Honestly the comment about the blue puppy looks like the least of my worries!  First off the breeder can't even spell the breed.  There's no info about registration, pedigree, training, trialing/titling, or health certificates (not saying it hasn't been done, but generally a breeder will be transparent and offer this information at any opportunity), and the few pictures of the dogs do not show them in very good condition (they look slightly overweight and not in any working/athletic condition).

Liesje

OK, I just took a look at the breeder link in the OP.  Honestly the comment about the blue puppy looks like the least of my worries!  First off the breeder can't even spell the breed.  There's no info about registration, pedigree, training, trialing/titling, or health certificates (not saying it hasn't been done, but generally a breeder will be transparent and offer this information at any opportunity), and the few pictures of the dogs do not show them in very good condition (they look slightly overweight and not in any working/athletic condition).

Hence why I was asking about the color - with that breeders webpage(and lack of info) I figured it was a bred-in-by-another-breed situation. But, thank you for all the info on the color occurance in the breed.

The most interesting thing about this thread to me was the color occurance information. I didn't realize GSD's have so much natural color variation. Thank you, Liesje, for leading me to Linda Shaw's illustrated standards (http://www.shawlein.com/The_Standard/07_Colour_&_Pigment/Colour_&_Pigment.html). They were so interesting. I learned a lot 

misstrouble

Liesje

OK, I just took a look at the breeder link in the OP.  Honestly the comment about the blue puppy looks like the least of my worries!  First off the breeder can't even spell the breed.  There's no info about registration, pedigree, training, trialing/titling, or health certificates (not saying it hasn't been done, but generally a breeder will be transparent and offer this information at any opportunity), and the few pictures of the dogs do not show them in very good condition (they look slightly overweight and not in any working/athletic condition).

Hence why I was asking about the color - with that breeders webpage(and lack of info) I figured it was a bred-in-by-another-breed situation. But, thank you for all the info on the color occurance in the breed.

 The website is without a doubt not a breeder who is just breeding to produce puppies to sell. Her dogs don't appear to be good quality at all and there is no info on the dogs other than that there are puppies for sale.

 Liesje is totally right about blue and liver GSDs. Just like with white, there is a long history of dilutes (liver and blue) in the breed. The color is not a sign that the dog is a mixed breed - just a recessive dilution of the "normal" black/tan and is something which pops up even in well bred litters from time to time. Sometimes the blues are so dark as adults that it is extremely hard to tell they are dilutes unless they are in the sun and there are rumors of dilute GSDs finishing in AKC from time to time.

 "There are two different dilutions of the black color possible,diluting it to blue or liver. A dog with normal black pigment can carry both the liver and blue gene,as blue and liver are at different places on the chromosome. In either dilution, the blue or liver color replaces the black pigment on the dog. As the color genes are seperate from the pattern genes,the dilutes may occur in any of the three breed patterns: agouti, two-tone,or solid color. Solid livers or blues are probably the least common as they would be genetically solid in pattern{which is recessive to the other patterns} and also dilute [both dilutions are recessive to the normal black pigment,}Blue or liver dilution also affects the nose leather and also eye pigment. A dog possessing only dilute genes for blue and liver, is possible. These dogs are of a silvery gray "Weimaraner" color. If a blue is bred to a liver, it is quite likely to get a dog with normal black pigment that possesses both dilution genes. This is because the dilutions for blue and liver are on separate locations, and each parent would have a normal pigment gene in the location for the other parent's dilution. It takes two genes of the same dilution to produce that particular dilute color. Similar dilutions of black pigment are found in many other species as well." http://www.geocities.com/sahiela2/colors.html

A list of some known dilute carriers: http://www.geocities.com/sahiela2/dilutegsds.html

LOTS of info on blues and livers: http://www.bluedogs.8m.com/

More info and pictures: http://www.4gsd.net/colours.html

A breeder talks about their surprise of getting a Blue in their litter: http://deblynsgermanshepherds.blogspot.com/2008/01/i-was-always-told-that-if-you-breed.html

A UKC CH blue GSD, prior to making any pigment but black a DQ. You can see that while he was very blue as a puppy, it was much less noticable once he was an adult:
http://www.bluedogpics.8m.com/dunny.htm

 My mistake about the color not being allowed. It is but it is a serious fault and as you've shown it would be DQ'd anyway, because of the nose.

Read here about one good reason not to want the dd gene carried on.

http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/70203.htm

This is one good reason a breeder would not want this gene and would spay and neuter the parents of a dog showing the blue (from dilution of black) or beige or fawn (from dilution of a liver), in order to prevent the gene from carrying on in their lines. And if you truly find a good breeder you will see where they will do this. They wouldn't be bragging about the fact that they bred one. If you notice this syndrome is best known in Dobermans. Probably because they've been breeding these dilute dobermans for awhile and it is just starting to get more popular with the shepherds.

Sorry my mistake about the link. I goofed. The link I was speaking of was a link that I'd found looking up info on LInda Shaw and she'd linked to some pictures of Blues, from a breeder, by her own admission, who purposely outcrossed to other breeds.

I guess, I just feel that people too often believe the dog is a purebred..when in fact the people really are breeding to other breeds, often for the special colors. Then they advertize as rare color and people buy into it and spend mucho bucks. And if it is in fact a purebred, which I agree some are....well bad for that breeder also

I still really think it's less about whether the dog is purebred or not, and more about motivation behind the breeding.  Color is a right silly reason to put pups on the ground, especially at the expense of other considerations.  Over-promotion of this sort of characteristic raises real warning flags for me. 

brookcove

I still really think it's less about whether the dog is purebred or not, and more about motivation behind the breeding.  Color is a right silly reason to put pups on the ground, especially at the expense of other considerations.  Over-promotion of this sort of characteristic raises real warning flags for me. 

I agree Becca.  Although in our breed community those who have a blue or red love them and other's who own our breed love to see them since they are rare - you wouldn't find a breeder breeding them and promoting blues and reds ever.  If they were that would be a problem.

nymaureen

This is one good reason a breeder would not want this gene and would spay and neuter the parents of a dog showing the blue (from dilution of black) or beige or fawn (from dilution of a liver), in order to prevent the gene from carrying on in their lines. And if you truly find a good breeder you will see where they will do this. They wouldn't be bragging about the fact that they bred one. If you notice this syndrome is best known in Dobermans. Probably because they've been breeding these dilute dobermans for awhile and it is just starting to get more popular with the shepherds.

I don't think it's any more or less popular than ever.  In fact I don't know any shepherd fanciers seeking out blue shepherds.  People who only pick based on color and probably have no business owning the breed in the first place?  Sure. 

Also, I'm not totally sure on this, but my inkling is that blue in GSDs is not the same as blue in Dobes, at least, I've never heard of any health or skin problems that go along with it, just faded black pigment, and often as adults it's impossible to tell the dog is blue unless you really know what you're looking for and see the dog in the right light. Again, as far as I can tell, blue/liver in GSDs are treated as coats.

And I totally agree that a good many are mixes, but that doesn't negate the fact that they do show up often enough to not really be super rare, and will show up in litters of good and bad breeders alike.  Anyone promoting the color is IMO not reputable, but just having it crop up doesn't really matter to me either way.

Lies, it is the same genetic process that produces dilute in both breeds.  It's the same for Border Collies as well.  In GSDs and BCs, however, it's rare enough that the alopecia linked to it tends not to pop up.

HOWEVER.  There's quite a few breeders of "candy colored" BCs out there and blue is, of course, a favorite, particularly in the Australian/NZ show lines.  Alopecia is starting to show up with more frequency in these lines.

The difference seems to be between "letting it happen" and deliberately crossing lines where it occurs over and over.