"Blue" GSD's?

What about them?  Blue is a color.  The standard does not really make a preference, so people selling "rare" colors or breeding selectively for color are not at all reputable.

I found it odd, I'd seen it in Pitt's BC's and a few others, but never GSD's.  I didn't know if it was like with Labs that the 'blue' was bred in via another breed or if it was more normal for that in this breed.

These aren't selling for color I don't think. they aren't overly priced.

 The down side of the internet...all of these backyard breeders able to market their dogs far and wide. My personal feeling about most of these different colored breeds is that they've been bred out to a breed that carries that color, just as you've said about the labs. Be interesting to see what they look like when they are adults. I've seen where people have used certain dogs, they've found photos of on the internet, as an example that a certain color really is carried in that particular breed, when to me it is perfectly obvious that the dog has some other breed in it. Research, research and then research again, is my motto and you will usually find out that, whatever the breed, it does not carry the color that people are trying to pass on and sell to the general public. You'll see Merle as one of those colors people try to pass off as a rare color, of the particular breed they are selling and I've seen it a lot with blue as well.  As far as not selling for color since they are not overpriced. They are asking probably what their area will get. Easier to sell local, than mess with having to ship, even though they will ship, they're perhaps not interested in doing much of it. And take 3 different breeds, probably breeding once a year or maybe even twice...we'll say 6 pups per litter, that's 18 pups and if they have the same price on the other pups, multiply 18 pups times $350 and that's $6300. That's $12600 if they breed twice a year. Not bad for having very little money spent out and just putting a male and female dog together and letting them do their thing. It appears to me as they don't do much with their dogs. Many give their own shots and so that isn't very costly for them. Lucky if they've even been to a vet. And we don't know that they may have sold some of the pups for more money, these are just the last of the litter and so maybe they've lowered the price on these ones. Not saying of course that this is all for sure, but if it isn't for this particular breeder it is for many of the other ones. I'm not against reputable breeders, I just think they are very few and far between. I also wonder how many of these internet puppy sellers are paying income taxes on this income and/or collecting sales tax.

misstrouble

I found it odd, I'd seen it in Pitt's BC's and a few others, but never GSD's.  I didn't know if it was like with Labs that the 'blue' was bred in via another breed or if it was more normal for that in this breed.

These aren't selling for color I don't think. they aren't overly priced.

It's not "normal", but it's not "rare" either b/c "rare" usually implies better/exotic/desireable.  It's just another color.  I believe it's just a black and tan with some gene that masks/fades the pigment, so from a show sense I believe it's poor pigment.  I don't know much about "blue" labs but blue GSDs are 100% legit.

nymaureen

My personal feeling about most of these different colored breeds is that they've been bred out to a breed that carries that color, just as you've said about the labs.

This is not true of GSDs.  I don't know about labs.  Blue GSDs have normal black/tan but a blue dilution in their genes (same as liver, there are liver or liver and tan GSDs).  Some very reputable breeders have had a blue crop up in a litter every 5-10 years or so.  The difference between a reputable breeder and a BYB is that the reputable breeder treats a blue just like any other, not selecting for or against it.  Reputable breeders will not allow people to pick solely based on color anyway.

Liesje

I don't know much about "blue" labs but blue GSDs are 100% legit.

Sometimes a "blue" pup(s) will pop out of a litter....I believe it has something to do with the chocolate gene....but, sometimes, BYB's will mix in a little Weim to get "blue" litters. They (BYB's) will usually market those pups as rare/exotic and up the price. For show, the only accepted colors are black, yellow, and chocolate.

Liesje

 

This is not true of GSDs.  I don't know about labs.  Blue GSDs have normal black/tan but a blue dilution in their genes (same as liver, there are liver or liver and tan GSDs).  Some very reputable breeders have had a blue crop up in a litter every 5-10 years or so.  The difference between a reputable breeder and a BYB is that the reputable breeder treats a blue just like any other, not selecting for or against it.  Reputable breeders will not allow people to pick solely based on color anyway.

Okay, lets put it this way, blues and livers may pop up very occasionally, but I'll bet the better percentage of those selling them, crossed out to another breed. I've just looked at one breeder with many, many dogs...blues, livers you name it. Well, the stronger the color, I could see evidence of another breed....husky for one. Another looked to me that it might have possibly even been some border collie mixed in. The more I search, unfortunately the more depressing it becomes. I feel very bad that so many people are taken in by these so called breeders and buy dogs from them, supporting them and spending mucho dollars that could have been better spent somewhere else, such as adopting from a shelter or buying from a reputable breeder.

 If a corgi has any "blue", which is a diluted black, they are not breeding material.

nymaureen

Liesje

 

This is not true of GSDs.  I don't know about labs.  Blue GSDs have normal black/tan but a blue dilution in their genes (same as liver, there are liver or liver and tan GSDs).  Some very reputable breeders have had a blue crop up in a litter every 5-10 years or so.  The difference between a reputable breeder and a BYB is that the reputable breeder treats a blue just like any other, not selecting for or against it.  Reputable breeders will not allow people to pick solely based on color anyway.

 

Okay, lets put it this way, blues and livers may pop up very occasionally, but I'll bet the better percentage of those selling them, crossed out to another breed. I've just looked at one breeder with many, many dogs...blues, livers you name it. Well, the stronger the color, I could see evidence of another breed....husky for one. Another looked to me that it might have possibly even been some border collie mixed in. The more I search, unfortunately the more depressing it becomes. I feel very bad that so many people are taken in by these so called breeders and buy dogs from them, supporting them and spending mucho dollars that could have been better spent somewhere else, such as adopting from a shelter or buying from a reputable breeder.

But blue is not a color, it's a dilution of black.  A blue GSD has a normal black gene but another dilution gene that expresses the black as a silver/gray.  It takes two recessives to make a blue GSD, and when a GSD is not pure it's pretty obvious based on other factors besides color.  Sure I've seen people advertising strange GSD colors and Kijiji and such and the dogs are obviously mixes, but it's genetic fact that purebred blue GSDs exist and occasionally crop up in litters of reputable breeders.  So, it is unfair to assume that because a puppy is blue, the breeder is not reputable (I'm saying in a general sense, I did not look at the link in the OP).  GSDs can also be liver, solid white, solid black, white paws and/or white chest, not to mention all the variations of black and cream, tan, red, blanket, and all the sable colors...there's a HUGE range of color, coat, and pattern in the breed and in most cases the genetics and how it works is quite well documented.

You don't see many blues or livers because while the standard makes no preference for color, weak pigment is not desirable, and blue is simply the extent that the color black is expressed.  The standard also calls for a black nose, so a diluted dog won't have a black nose.

IMO if people are picking their dog based on color/dilution then I can't feel sorry for them, that's their prerogative to be irresponsible and purchase from irresponsible breeders.

This is a blue GSD (American line).

Possible blue patterns, from the Linda Shaw illustrated standard

Another blue GSD

I don't think there's any need to be defensive and like "so what". The OP was just curious. I know I've never seen a blue GSD and thought it was interesting.

I don't know about the Weims/lab situation, but on the GSDs, because it's not a hugely rare variation, I wouldn't think a breeder that has a bunch of them has been playing fast and loose with the breed.  

GSDs have a huge amount of variation in the breed.  It's a real chore for those who breed with some purpose, to hold together all the different directions that GSD genetics are going in.  So, if any breeder loses sight of that for something as superficial as color, it wouldn't take long for the dogs to look poorly bred, and eventually not really even look all GSD.  Honestly I'd imagine the same could be said of labs - eyes would be sharp to spot supposed similarities to Weims but for most I don't see how you could tell.  Weims look so much like labs anyway.

Blue doesn't have to do with liver/chocolate, which is a different gene than black (ie, a dog can be black, or liver, but not both at the same time).  The dilute gene acts on the locus which carries liver and black (B/b), so you can have a dilute black or dilute liver.  It doesn't affect tan markings, although it does affect dominant yellow color (like Irish setters and golden retrievers and yellow labs).  On yellow, however, it can be hard to spot.

The gene is recessive.  That means if you get two parents that are expressing it (they have two copies of it), 100% of their pups will also be dilutes.   So it's very easy to increase rapidly in a population once you get a few separate individuals with the gene.  The problem is, a recessive trait is also one that is randomly expressed AND may be linked in some way to one or more OTHER recessive traits.  These may be relatively benign like a more feminine head, or even a more collie-like head, more moderate ears, a lighter frame - or the opposite.  Or, they may be unpleasant traits like a structural weakness or a disease.

Another good example of this can be seen in the breeding of a fellow named Gary Ericsson.  He was a breeder of working Border Collies and Aussies.  His standards were intensely high.  His Aussies were very focused and could do long outruns and distance field work as well as a good Border Collie, in addition to being good at the things Aussies are good at - going in hard when needed and not taking "no" for answer.  If you saw one of his dogs working it would be hard to tell it from a Border Collie.  They work with a low head, crouching, using their eyes to hold stock and cut off their escape instead of bouncing around from side to side.  I've seen a couple of Aussies with strong Hanging Tree lines and they are amazing.

People started yelling that he had combined Border Collies and Aussies.  They pointed to physical characteristics in his Aussies that were "like BCs."  His dogs tended to be solid colors instead of merles.  They were lighter boned, longer bodied, and some had upright ears.

This was silly.  If you select for Border Collie like characteristics in dogs that are already very similar to BCs, then of course they'll start resembling BCs in many ways.  Especially a more or less recessive trait like eye.  The same thing has been done in rough collies (NZ Heading Dogs) and working Beardies with the same result - dogs that look and work for all the world like Border Collies.

Gary Ericcson did eventually create his own breed, but it wasn't a BC/Aussie cross - it was BC/cur dog.  That breed, the Hangin Tree Cowdog (HTC) is just shy of achieving true breed status - a stable gene pool is in place, and there were three separate registries that just voted to combine.  I have a couple friends with HTCs and it should be fun to watch this happen. I may go visit this guy's ranch sometime next year.

The other factor in basing your line on a recessive trait, is the founder effect - such dogs will set characteristics in a line very quickly and you won't be able to get rid of it, short of DNA testing.  Quarter horses are living that nightmare still, as are the rough collie people.

Merle is a different matter altogether.  If a breed HAS merle in the genetics, then a merle parent must be used to create a merle line.  It's dominant so there always has to be one merle parent.  There can't be two, as with black (also dominant), to increase the odds of a merle, because it's a lethal dominant and pups with two genes are usually severely handicapped or don't make it post partum.  Some do it anyway as the double merle pups are used to increase merle in the line (ick), but it's not Nice.  At least I don't think so. 

I just fostered and placed a darling little double merle sable Border Collie and her new owners took her on knowing what they were getting into - they wanted a "project dog".  Still, it's heartbreaking to hear of their constant trips to the vet - thankfully her life expectancy is excellent, as is her quality of life thanks to their wonderful care of her, but she's deaf, has limited eyesight, has a deformed spine and hip, and has skin and immune system troubles.

Basically, it's my personal belief that breeding strictly for color is not responsible. Dogs aren't fashion statements.  

 Here is a link to silver lab infor, for those curious....

Basically, it's my personal belief that breeding strictly for color is not responsible.

agree totally. It's not the fact that those GSDs were blue that is of concern, it's the fact the color of the dogs figured prominently in the ad title.

brookcove

Blue doesn't have to do with liver/chocolate, which is a different gene than black (ie, a dog can be black, or liver, but not both at the same time).  The dilute gene acts on the locus which carries liver and black (B/b), so you can have a dilute black or dilute liver. 

My understanding is that in GSDs the liver is like the blue.  Genetically, a liver and tan GSD IS a black and tan GSD as far as color, but the black is expressed faded as liver (or blue).

Basically, it's my personal belief that breeding strictly for color is not responsible. Dogs aren't fashion statements.