Liesje
Posted : 6/17/2008 12:35:09 PM
Workingdoglover
Ooo, I definitely like the female. I like it when you can actually tell that the dog is a bitch (without "looking," of course). I see so many masculine looking bitches! And even if the pups aren't from serious protection lines, you could always compete at club levels and have fun with it. I often wonder if the SV dogs' performance is more because of training, too. Maybe they're just getting lazy with their dogs since they know they can win anyway...? Obviously I also think a lot of it is genetics, too, but I've just always wondered. It would be interesting to find out with your pup. :)
I've been told both and this is what I was told by a reputable, experienced working line breeder and I agree...it is training to a degree, BUT a good working line dog is genetically far easier to train anyway. They have been selectively bred with the drive, focus, and intensity that the breed should have. I was really considering a working line dog but worried that the drive might be over the top for a novice. All the working line breeders I spoke to told me that's not the case, that it would be way easier for me to get into SchH with a working line dog b/c the dog would be much easier to motivate and train. Yes, training is a big part of it and it seems the SV people are lacking there, but at the same time those dogs have not been bred for their drives so many of them just plain don't have what it takes to really cut it. Even for me as a novice I see very clear differences in the way Kira works and the male Arex. When he does the bark and hold....it just doesn't seem as serious. He will turn and look to the handler for direction and encouragement. Now, Kira....simply show her the sleeve and she is ON FIRE, that dog puts the fear of God into me, and she is not even from working/SchH lines. So for such a pup I have zero expectations as far as SchH, even with Kira's courage and drive. We will be in the club and do it but I do not expect anything impressive at all. Each line is being bred for different traits so I just had to pick which was more appropriate for me at this time. We are planning a big move early 2009 so I've decided to wait and establish myself with a local SchH club wherever we move to before getting a working dog. Now that I have been competing with Kenya, I'm confident doing the same types of things with another dog and also I know other friends of this breeder who are helping me get hooked up with new trainers and clubs, but none of us have any real experience with SchH.
ETA. Here is the info I got from the working line person...
[is it true that a working line puppy will most likely be easier to train in Schutzhund, b/c of its genetics? ]In short, yes. A working line dog is going to be much easier to train
in SchH. The natural drives and ability is there, so it's just bringing
them out and molding them. Also, because they naturally have more drive
and hardness, they are also more resilient to training mistakes,
overrcorrections, poorly timed corrections, needing to change up
something in training because you taught it slightly wrong. These
things make them not only better for SchH in general, but especially
for novices who are going to be more prone to making mistakes just
because they don't know any better.
Yes,
there are showlines that work in terms of they actually earned their
titles. And the Krischental lines are some of the best in that respect.
But even those tend to require a lot more patience, drive building,
finesse in training... all of which means it takes more time and effort
to get to the same place you could get quicker and easier with a dog
who brought more to the table naturally. With a good dog, the learning
curve for the handler is much steeper than that of the dog. If you've
got a handler AND a dog both with steep learning curves, it gets a lot
harder to be successful. .......................
If you want to have a dog that can work in
SchH without a lot of "special ed" training, than get a working line
dog. You certainly don't want, and probably aren't prepared for, the
top working prospect in a working litter. But a more moderate, middle
of the road working line pup would be perfect. These are great dogs for
novices. Plenty of dog to get them where they want to go without an
unusual amount of effort, but not so much dog that it's going to become
too difficult for them to handle. In the long run you'll have a much
more successful, and less frustrating time, training in SchH.
.......................
German show line could definitely do the
rally, agility, UKC ob, BH. If the dog can't do SchH, 99.9% of the time
it's the protection phase they're not cut out for, in which case you
could still train with a club and gain experience and do the OB and TR
titles separately through the SchH organizations. So plenty of things
to do.
This is the same sort of response I've gotten from other working line breeders and German show line people (who admit protection work isn't really a priority).