Training the Independent Breeds

NILF -- all day, every day :)

Also, find out what motivates your dog and use it as a reward for training. 

My tip is to research the breed you are interested in and by research that means more than reading a few breed descriptions.  Spend as much time around the breed and talk to owners and breeders.  Have your eyes open and a plan for dealing with breed traits that make some breeds more challenging to train than others.  I agree that starting early and finding the motivator for your dog are key factors in the success of training an independent breed. 

 People often allow and even encourage certain behaviors with puppies because it's cute and funny but I always try to keep my eye on the end result, the adult dog.  What I want as an adult shapes my training from day one.  

 And even spending a weekend or a dozen in a hotel room with dogs of a certain breed is NOT the same as living with one. You're going to be shocked! LOL

I have found that if I can make them feel like it's their idea, and allow them to CHOOSE to do what I want, I get a lot farther. Emma is a great dog for freeshaping (Parson Russell Terrier from the shelter). Ena Bean (Crested- primative, terriery sighthoundish, independant breed) learns well with short training games. She does well with marking and luring.

I always laugh because I do agility with my Mini's, and my training group is almost entirely herding dogs (Border Collies, Kelpies, etc) - and I look at them and always think to myself....they are so easy!!! I know all breeds have their thing, but in reality something so simple as keeping a Schnauzer's nose off the ground from horse scent is something a lot of the herder owners don't ever have to contend with!

The biggest thing I've learned is that you basically need to let the dog think it was their idea. What I mean by that is that you have to control the resources such that they want to do as you are asking. Finding the motivator that works for "that dog" is key. Not only that, it is finding the right motivator that works for that dog, in that situation. You sometimes have to be really specific about things, and you often have to find unusual rewards for them, such as the opportunity to run free, the opportunity to sniff, etc. These types of dogs work well when they have to perform different behaviours for life rewards - going outside, eating, coming out of their kennel, etc.

When I teach, the key for me is to train often, but train in small time periods and to always keep their attention up. Always stop as they are having fun. Terriers do not like drilling, and they will tell you so in their own terms. And they often do not hestiate to give you the proverbial finger if you wrong them or don't do things to their standards!! Sometimes you have to find different ways to practice the same behaviour, and with terriers of course you always have to be aware of the minute distractions or possible self-reinforcers they may be able to take on their own that may affect your goals.

Also, to be successful you really need foundation work. Focus, focus, focus. If you don't have focus, you can't get anywhere else. And often, focus is the hardest thing for terrier owners to get from their dogs.

Another thing I have learned with terriers, is that every dog will move at their own pace, and management is very important for these dogs. Sometimes their natural inclinations cannot easily, or even permanently, be overcome. While I have two who have earned off-leash status for hikes, I have one girl who at 5.5 years old still needs a long line in certain areas. It's not that she's not trained, it's that sometimes people cannot compete with certain environmental reinforcers and you set them up for failure if you expect otherwise. It all comes with age, too, the older she gets the more reliable she gets. But it's a challenge for sure.

That's it in a nutshell for me..I'm sure I could elaborate on more and if I come up with something else I'll be sure to add it. Living with terriers long-term has certainly changed my perspective on dogs since living with Labs or being around dogs who do care what their people think. But you know? I love the challenge, I like taking an independent dog and creating an animal that wants to work with you instead of finding its own rewards.

It makes you so proud to know your dog is choosing you, and that you didn`t have to use pain or intimidation to get there...which brings me to the fact that terriers actually don`t tend to respond well to physical force and pushing them around. The more you try to make them do what you want, the more you tend to turn them off and have them totally lose respect fo you. They are emotional, active, sometimes tenacious, often hair-trigger dogs who will be more likely to defend themselves or return the physical force than to accept the treatment and back down. Terriers may not start stuff (but sometimes they may instigate too), but they generally are not ones to back off quickly either.

 Kim, I loved your post so much I want to print it out and keep it!

What you said is exactly how I train mine, and exactly how I feel about training a more "challenging" breed.   The key for me has been to definitely approach training in the mindset of how to set up the training situation so that the dog feels what you're asking for is easy, and so that they almost choose to repeat the exercise.  I joke all the time with DH that I swear that the AKK are thinking "Muahaha silly human, if only you realized how easy this is!  And you keep rewarding me!".  Using varied rewards and working in short sessions with carefully heightened criteria has definitely worked for my dogs, so much that when they see leather leads come out, they start jumping up and down, knowing we're going to do some Obedience work.  And they're AKK!  They are not truly "meant" for obedience work, and it makes me so proud to see how much fun my dogs have doing it. 

I've also had a lot of success with incorporating exercises/tricks into NILIF.  There are so many opportunities throughout the day to practice in all situations, that I use it to my advantage.  I vary what I ask for before the reward, so that no move goes stale, and it keeps them thinking!

Kim_MacMillan

I love the challenge, I like taking an independent dog and creating an animal that wants to work with you instead of finding its own rewards.

 Kim, we have a person in our area who does agility with a Beagle - imagine how hard it is to keep that thing's nose off the ground;-)  Loved your post, but I can assure you that while most of the herders make it look easy, some of them have their moments, too, especially when they are owned by people who haven't dealt with herders before... 

I know Herders can have their issues, I've seen some of them crop up and I'm very close to a strong herding-line and drive Kelpie as well. All breeds will have their thing, of course. But in terms of training "tricks" and "behaviours" for the sake of training them, there are clear differences I see in the hounds and terriers in attention, focus, and dedication. 

Absolutely.  My hound is no where near as "dedicated" as the herdygirls.  He knows all the same behaviors, but you can tell that he would rather be doing something else most of the time (sleeping on the couch, sniffing the air, eating).

 I have herding spitzes, so I like to think I dodged the worst of the independence. Having said that, when I got Erik I was amazed at how easy he was to train compared to Kivi. He's far more herder than spitz. Kivi is a wee bit more spitz than herder. He definitely had his moments of "Yeah, I don't want your treats. I'm going over here." I overcame them with just lots of conditioning so that he no longer thinks about whether he wants my treats. He comes and then he gets treats and he's already forgotten what he left.

My mother has a very independent dog that is like a miniature husky. He is crazy smart and he will only do something if he has assessed it and decided it will benefit him more than doing whatever it is he is doing right now. Where Kivi hears a command and goes "Well, why not?", Pyry hears a command and goes "Hmm, why should I?" The key to getting Pyry to do anything is as other people have said: tricking him into thinking it was his idea. If he gets duped and realises it, he will never fall for that trick again. You have to be smarter and if you're lazy he will take advantage of it. I love that dog to bits, because there is nothing like a dog that has decided he'd rather do something with you when you know he was perfectly happy doing stuff on his own. Kivi is nearly always interested in what I'm doing, and Erik is basically a BC with a bit of attitude.

I really like the When Pigs Fly book about training "impossible" dogs. And the Clean Run articles. So I would suggest those as good resources.

Otherwise:

 - Make sure the reward is...rewarding and mix it up. A high prey drive sighthound will likely find chasing a toy on a string higher value than food.

- Keep training sessions short and fun. Work on drive building and avoid using correction.

- As others have said, make them think what you want them to do is their idea.

- Teach impulse/self control behaviors.

- NILIF: Not to establish "dominance" but because if you control the environment and rewards, you control the dog.

 I LOVED the Pigs Fly book, and will second that.

My Crested certainly finds a flirt pole more rewarding than a lame cookie, or even a peice of cheese.  The flirt pole can become too arousing, though, so I save it for working something she already knows, and getting it EXACTLY right. It's such a balancing game!

I have the Pigs Fly book, but haven't read it yet as I lent it to a friend. I know it's great though, just from the reviews. Now I just can't wait to read it!!

I like a challenge, which is why I have a Siberian Husky and Beagle. My Siberian is very food and prey motivated so he's not actually that hard to train and I've found him far easier than my beagle, who while food motivated, goes into scent drive at the drop of a hat. I could shove food under her nose when she's on a scent and she wouldn't even notice it was there.

My Siberian is no where near as easily distracted and is very smart so he picks things up pretty quickly too. The thing with Siberians is that they can be very stubborn and get bored very easily - the hardest thing is not teaching them what to do but getting them reliable. They are masters of the 'You're an idiot, why don't you do it yourself?' look, LOL.

I am training my beagle to compete in obedience and hopefully we will enter our first trial in the not too distant future. I found that I really had to think outside the square with her. When you rock up to obedience club with a beagle you have to be prepared to hear the standard "A Beagle? You're game!" or "Haha, a beagle, good luck there!" or "I'd rather train a zebra than a beagle". LOL. Lucky for me, I found a great trainer who taught me beagles aren't really hard to train - they are high drive dogs and have all that drive there, it's just a matter of harnessing it and knowing how to work with it.

Had I continued going down the standard obedience club training path I probably would have entered Daisy in a trial before now, but I doubt I would have had the reliability, drive and solid performance I'm starting to see in her now.

One of the most important factors IMO is finding you're dogs main drive; what switches your dog on and motivates them the most. We're at a stage in our training now where scenting is becoming less and less exciting than what I have to offer. Only yesterday I had Daiz off leash at the park at we were surrounded by other dogs (strange dogs and dogs she knew) kids, people, loads of scents etc and not only could I recall her from all those distractions numerous times but she was really keen to work and nice and focused.

I also found it wasn't just about finding what motivates Daisy but how I used that motivation, I have always trained her with food, but the way I do it now vs the way I did it before has changed and so has her responsiveness. Daisy is very keen to work now in just about any situation.

 Kim, my favorite part was the section where she helps you teach the dog to play, as a reward. Emma got so much sharper and brighter, as a working dog, when I started playing during work. She loves it! I nudge her away, with my foot, and tell her, "You better heel!" Her nose comes up, she's grinning, and loving it, because she naturally shoves a lot during play. I taught her the "touch" game, too, and she LOVES that one!