Female problems....how do I keep them from fighting? They never fought before, this is new?

Abbeyroad, I think you are misunderstanding, we are not saying that females are always more likely TO fight, just that when they DO, it is often more vicious, and they will continue to do so (males might fight over food, a female, a short squabble asserting dominance...but females will fight simply because they can no longer stand the sight/scent of each other).

Liesje

Are there any resources involved that they could be guarding? (toys, food, you...)  Is one constantly pestering the other?  Do they play for a while and then get sick of each other?  If they just go into the yard and immediately start going at it, sounds more like they just don't like each other and aren't going to play well.  Do either of them play with other dogs?  Could you take them to the dog park and see if they will play near each other, but just not with each other, for starters?

Resources: Jack.   The scuffles most of the time tend to involved Jack.  One is picking on Jack or paying extra attention to Jack and the other doesn't like it.  Typically Ziva pays attention to Jack and Allie gets mean with Ziva.      Both Allie and Jack gang up on Ziva constantly.   Ziva tolerates it most of the time and always from Jack but she lives with Jack.    Since I've been pregnant Ziva has been extra protective of me, Allie has been very agressive toward me, growling at me.   Ziva jumps in front and tells Allie it seems to back off.   Only since I've been pregnant.  Since I've been pregnant with my dogs and without my dogs I haven't been able to go near Allie, she growls at me all the time.

 Ziva and Jack play with tons of other dogs.   They play with my moms poodle, my dads 2 labs, beagle, and maltese.   They have a boxer friend.  They have a rat terrier friend.      My dog that I have to watch closely with other dogs is Jack, and that is only at first.   He is not very trusting of new dogs.   But after he gets to know them he is good

Allie only plays with them.  My grandparents are extra cautious.  They don't know many dog owners and don't get out much anyways.  The only other dog she would possibly play with is my uncles lab and they don't trust that dog.  Heck they don't trust most dogs

They typically play for an hour or two and then scuffles start.  Its almost never immediate.  Again this has only happened 2 maybe 3 times.  And usually it involves Jack at the center of it.  Usually.

Dog parks are not an option.   We went to the dog park a few times when my dogs were pups.  But after seeing two dogs killed at the dog park we vowed we would never set foot in one of those horrible places ever again.

Last time my dogs went to play Allie was left in the back of the house but when we go over we stay for hours and usually we do Sunday brunch, so you can see how unfair it is to everyone.

But the yard is essential.  We live in a small apartment.  And me being pregnant I wear out so easy on there walks now....its nice having this yard to go to and let them just run off some energy every once in awhile

 Maybe I'm missing something, but if you know the dogs don't get along, especially after an hour or so together, why not either 1. Make sure Allie is in the house when your dogs are in the yard, or 2. end play at about an hour instead of going past it??  Fighting is not fun for anyone and the more they practice it, the worse it's going to get. 

I know a ton of dogs that get tired and thus more cranky at around 45 minutes to an hour of running play and their owners acknowledge this instead of forcing the dog into a situation they aren't comfortable with.

Sometimes we need to really pay attention to what our dogs tell us, rather than forcing an issue.

IME, once females start fighting they are very unlikely to stop, especially when they are similar in size, temperament, and/or age.  I've lived with a dog that was aggressive with the other female in the house after being fine for several months after adoption - that grudge lasted until the other dog died (unrelated) 7 years later.  That same dog is absolutely fine with my other female dog, but she is much younger (8 years) and very deferential. 

Abbeyroad86

Last time my dogs went to play Allie was left in the back of the house but when we go over we stay for hours and usually we do Sunday brunch, so you can see how unfair it is to everyone.

Dogs don't think of things as fair or unfair.  That's a human concept.  I would think the dogs would enjoy not being put in a situation that leads to a fight and the possible injuries that could result.  As far as being unfair to your grandmother and her dog, it's her house and you should be the one to keep your dogs confined when your two are not in the yard playing by themselves. 

No because my dogs only come in for a few minutes at time and then go right back out.   My dogs aren't agressive, hers is.   Allie was put in the back not only for fighting with Ziva but for snapping at me.    Plus they don't trust my terrier in their home unsupervised.   She is a good dog and doesn't chew on things anymore.  But when she was a teething puppy they watched her and didn't crate her and she chewed up a pair of shoes, a cellphone cord, and she got up in a chair and starting gnawing on the computer keyboard.    All those items I paid for replacements for.    Even though she doesn't do it now they don't trust her out of their sight around their stuff.   I leave her loose at home all the time.   Infact when we are all inside, for brunch.  Allie is usually in the back of the house confined.  (None of the dogs really use crates).   And Jack and Ziva settle down with a bone in the Laundryroom/Kitchen behind a gate.   We eat in the dining area but they are in our sight at all times

 Besides Allie gets free run and the yard all the time.

Behaviorist isn't going to happen.  My grandparents are old, have a ton of health problems and living on social security.  They aren't going to pay for a behaviorist.   And my dogs don't have issues, I'm not wasting my money on a behaviorist for a dog that isn't mine when I have a baby on the way.  I know my grand dad is considering getting rid of the dog.   He thought because she was a Bichon/Poodle mix she would be a lot like Jack.  Total wrong reason to get a dog.  He isn't very nice to her, she was abused by men in the past.  He yells at her a lot.   He doesn't like the way she is acting toward me since I got pregnant.   Again she growls and snaps at me if I go anywhere near her now.  Only been since i've been pregnant, loved me to death before that.     My grandmother wants to keep the dog because she has a bond with the dog, but they don't want to put any money or can't put any money into training her.    But I know their history with dogs as well, get a dog keep it a year or two, get tired of it and get rid of it.

I don't approve of agree with it, and I can tell them how wrong it is until I am blue in the face.   It doesn't matter.   They say they aren't strong dog people like I am and they wouldn't think twice about rehoming a dog.    Especially since their other grand daughter that had a baby a few months ago visits a lot and Allie has to be put up around the baby, she gets very mean around the baby.   They are thinking because there is going to be another baby its not a good idea to keep her.     I told them its their business but I'd lose some respect if they do get rid of her.   Because she has had 5 or 6 homes in the last 2 years.     But they don't want to train her.

My Ziva is about to take the Canine Good Citizenship Test.  She graduated Top of her obedience classes.   She is an overall good dog.     Now my two dogs get out there and run for hours together, no problems.    Addies old it appears and needs breaks she can't keep up with my dogs as hard as she tries she wears out, but its not my say to tell them to take her in.   I've suggested it.   And when they have listened and took her in for a half hour.   She comes back refreshed and ready to play and plays nicely.    I don't think they realize she is older than my two.   She gets to run whenever she wants.   Shes not cooped up in a small apartment all day.      I have a terrier, it takes a good 2-3 hours of good hard core running and playing to truely tire her out.   My poodle wears down after about 2 hours.     Before I got pregnant I can't tell you how many walks we would go on in a day.   Just to keep their energy down.   Now they are down to two 1 hour walks a day.   And 2 or 3, couple hour play/offleash run sessions a week.     We even try to go when my grandparents aren't there because Allie won't be coming out.    We have always been told we are welcome to exercise them their anytime, as long as we don't do something stupid like take our dogs to the dog park again.  Which we won't be doing.

We are working on getting a house, its another year, year and a half away.  Then we won't need their yard.   We have already started looking.  Our biggest requirement is a nice yard for the dogs, also in a safe neighborhood for a our kid.    We have to wait though because my husband may be transferring out of state after the baby comes, so we have to wait and see what happens.

its probably not even worth worrying about.  Knowing their history with dogs.  

I'll suggest the behaviorist to them but I doubt they will go that route

Well, all I can say is, good luck.  Poor Allie, she's the real loser in the whole story.

I feel bad for her I really do.    But there isn't much I can do for her.   I have my hands full with 2 young active dogs and soon a baby.    Sometimes I do think she would be better off in a home with people who would treat her right and work with her on her training needs, and wouldn't encouarage agression.   Sometimes I feel it was a mistake for them to adopt her.   But she has been so good for my grandma at the same time.   My grandpa has pretty much had enough with her, and all the dogs really.    We've cut play time for our dogs down to once a week or when he isn't there.   My grandma loves when we bring the dogs over.   My grandpa had a stroke and hasn't been the same since, he has in essence fully recovered but he sure has a temper now     Normally he would have worked harder for her, he has with the past dogs before giving them up.    I don't think this dog will be given up without a fight from my grandma but sometimes I think it might have been a good idea if they hadn't impulsively got a dog.     Again i can't do much for her, she won't even let me within 5 feet of her without growling at me since I've been pregnant.

I can only help with my part and that is my dogs and my dogs are really good dogs and have had proper training, I think some of Allies past issues are starting to show up and they weren't prepared for baggage

Well - to look at in another light - you're bringing YOUR dogs into HER yard - any dog may become defensive or territorial.

It sounds like you already have a way to keep them seperate when you're there for longer periods of time - and I'd do just that; there honestly is no sense in forcing two dogs to get along.

All the training in the world wont change true dog behavior. I knew a CGC aussie who was meaner than a rattlesnake if a stranger would come into his house - invited or not - he had to be put away.

 Your very very best bet is to keep them seperate.  Really.  You don't want to risk what this could turn into.  If you REALLY don't want to do that, (and I really honestly sincerely CANNOT see why that is such a problem at all, unless you actually LIVED at this house... as it is you only visit) - then here is what I suggest:

If they get cranky after an hour - then simply stop play after 45 minutes.  Give all the dogs a chance to rest, drink, maybe eat or chew  *seperately*. 

Remember that these things can be considered a resource and as such there is increased risk of a fight.  So SEPERATE is key.  Either crated, or in seperate rooms.

If you let them out to play again after that, set a limit on it and watch closely for signs of snarkiness, and step in EARLY, before anything escalates.

If Jack is usually in the centre of the scuffles, then let 1 or 2 dogs out to play at a time, with one of the females (for preference) or possibly Jack.... being indoors.

If they don't trust your dog in their house, then (and this is hard to hear I know, especially if you KNOW your dog is OK) you really got to respect their wishes.  It's still do-able though, if you compromise by confining your dog.  A crate would be an ideal solution. If the situation were other than it is, I would suggest leashing, tethering or otherwise confining, but with there being considerable risk of someone getting hurt, then I would not want to restrict a dog so that they could not run away, unless they were also protected from a possible attack as well.  Does that make sense?

I really hope I am not sounding too harsh here (it's hard to get "tone" across in writing) but your priority needs to shift from: "they should let my dogs be in their house"; "my dogs NEED this exercise"; and "the females should be friends again" to: S A F E T Y !!! 

I understand your other concerns, but really honestly and truly: safety should be paramount.  Keep all these pups SAFE.  You don't want to see how nasty a real "bitch-fight" could be....  Bitches don't forgive as easily as males, and when they do fight it can escalate each time until they are fighting to the death.  It's horrible.  Don't let it happen to your dogs.

Abbeyroad86

Okay but you are missing the point. They always got along before.   But in the last 2 or 3 visits fights have broke out.    So its not that they don't get along its that the last few times they saw each other scuffles have broke out.

  I think you're missing the point. Young dogs generally get along with each other and other dogs and older dogs tend to be more tolerant of immature dogs. Once you have a group of all mature dogs, things change and sometimes dogs who used to get along great end up not being able to be together any more. Certain breeds have more or less tendency towards same sex aggression but it is a possibility with all dogs and something that generally does not show up until the dogs in question are mature.

  My oldest dog is a female GSD named Jora who will fight with other mature females in the household. She and my other GSD got along extremely well until they were both over two years old but ended up having to be kept separated at all times because of fighting. Jora will get along with most females I bring in until they are mature, at which point she becomes intolerant of them, regardless of their behavior towards her. I can control this to some degree with dogs she does not have a fighting history with but it requires me to be 100% focused on what is going on with the dogs at all times or there will be a fight (not worth it to me - she lives upstairs with the boys and the other girls live downstairs). Once dogs have a history of fighting with each other, it becomes harder and harder to get them back together without a fight and the fights often become more and more serious.

 Same sex aggression in dogs is well documented. Just because you don't like what is being said doesn't mean it isn't accurate. Some articles:

http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/archives/bitch.txt

 " When two same-sex dogs are not able to work out which of them is leader, sometimes your only choice is to separate them. It is cruel to keep two dogs together that fight to the point of injury, even when they seem to love each other. This would not happen in nature. One would leave and form a new pack. It's a problem we create by how we keep dogs in our homes--the combination of dogs we put together, and how we manage them."  http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1009&S=1&SourceID=47

jdata

I skimmed on some of the readings but I get the gist of it. What happens you put the two bitches in neutral territory?

That depends.  Usually, dogs that have good social skills will go through a greeting ritual, then decide if they want to play or not.  The "not" can be anything from utter disinterest to a fun play time to "I think I will kill you now."  

spiritdogs

 

jdata

I skimmed on some of the readings but I get the gist of it. What happens you put the two bitches in neutral territory?

That depends.  Usually, dogs that have good social skills will go through a greeting ritual, then decide if they want to play or not.  The "not" can be anything from utter disinterest to a fun play time to "I think I will kill you now."  

 And dogs with a history of having issues with each other will generally have issues even in a neutral place.

AgileGSD

spiritdogs

 

jdata

I skimmed on some of the readings but I get the gist of it. What happens you put the two bitches in neutral territory?

That depends.  Usually, dogs that have good social skills will go through a greeting ritual, then decide if they want to play or not.  The "not" can be anything from utter disinterest to a fun play time to "I think I will kill you now."  

 

 And dogs with a history of having issues with each other will generally have issues even in a neutral place.

That's exactly right.  And, when bitches fight, they can really mean business, whereas with the boys, sometimes its all just bluster.  If you have any reservations about putting two dogs together, trust your instincts and get some professional help.