oh boy... this one's got me stumped!

erica1989

A loud YELP and NO do not faze him - again, it's like he can't even hear me.

Have you tried using a low voice to redirect him?  Could be the yelping is riling him more?  Or just raisiing your head and "freezing" when he nips?  I've even imitated a roar-bark at persistant biters, and it does work, but you might not feel happy doing that as you are wanting to boost his confidence.... I mean, I'd do it and bedamned, because while building confidence is all fine and dandy, I don't want most dogs feeling all confident about biting my skin.... but you have more experience with fosters than me, so it's your call.

I have done the low, stern - NO - and that does seem to get through to him. Usually - when he bites me it's more out of PAIN that I yelp... honestly. you should see my arms - and he's only been here a short while...

but that's what I'm talking about - he SO hard to read! Some times he's this scared little puppy that wont walk through the door - and then he's this NASTLY over confident, dominate little s*** that really HURTS!

I have instructed everyone in the house to use LOW STERN voices - my brother was using a hig pitch noooo that was riling him up more. We've got little cups of cat food (dog treats... haha) all over to reward him when he's good... which at this point it not often!

He's not allowed on any furniture - and will NOT be sleeping in bed like everyone else gets to do. I'm really very concerned about him....

Chuffy

 

erica1989

A loud YELP and NO do not faze him - again, it's like he can't even hear me.

Have you tried using a low voice to redirect him?  Could be the yelping is riling him more?  Or just raisiing your head and "freezing" when he nips?  I've even imitated a roar-bark at persistant biters, and it does work, but you might not feel happy doing that as you are wanting to boost his confidence.... I mean, I'd do it and bedamned, because while building confidence is all fine and dandy, I don't want most dogs feeling all confident about biting my skin.... but you have more experience with fosters than me, so it's your call.

I've actually seen this before -- this is what happens when a dominant dog is taken from mom too soon -- and he learns to respect NO ONE.  No one is his "authority" ... his way or the highway. 

so then someone gets overly nasty with him out of despair (likely something NASTY happened behind a doorway and he got the tar scared out of him way too much).  And a foster home in over their head gets too desperate and does all the wrong things.

I do something very similar to Chuffy.  To me, and I know it's not a popular concept, but I do *NOT* allow an animal ever to mouthe me until it hurts.  You don't have to hit but you have to be physically intimidating, 100% consistent UNTIL you get his attention and then keep right on getting it.

I'd leave him leashed in the house  100% of the time ALL the time.  You need that extra "line" to control him without putting yourself at risk.  He's learned no bite inhibition.  You will have to teach him.  The next time he hurts you immediately cry in pain.  BUT STAND UP and put your foot on his leash giving him NO room to move or turn.

 Draw yourself to your full height, stand feet apart body RIGID (remember dogs learn body language first -- when a dog goes rigid and their hackles stand up they mean business -- you can't do that, but you CAN physically stand, be rigid, FISTS ON HIPS, every bone rigid and GLARE at him with narrowed eyes (no whites showing -- let him know you are **angry** it is justified)..  Then you say:

"WHAT are you doing? YOU .... ***hurt*** ME! You STOP that!"

 don't yell -- my caps aren 'yelling' -- it's emphasis.  Keep your voice absolutely low and absolutely **deadly** serious.

This begins a pattern.  "What are you doing" or "What do you think you are doing?" will become your trigger phrase when he knows he's gone WAY over the line.

"You ... HURT ... me" -- a dog must never EVER hurt a human.  This is way beyond 'ignoring' or behavior you can simply 'train' -- you honestly have to stop this and stop it now by getting his attention. 

He has no mother.  Mostly never has.  Hes' had a series of humans and other dogs he could bully.  someone snapped and hurt/scared him. 

"You STOP that" -- or "NO" ----  I think the word "no" can be over-used -- you likely need a word like "stop" literally as an over-ride, you've gone to far cease & desist type of command -- not often used, but absolutely no argument with it EVER.

this kind of dog you don't provoke in their face or with anger (you'll get bitten) -- but you do have to absolutely make this final.  'yelping' does no good because he's dominant and he was never successfully taught that pain has repercussions by Mom dog, so he's literally a bit socially retarded. 

If you can't get his attention this way (and you likely won't the first time) then I'd separate him off -- AWAY (denied of your presence and particularly of the other playmate's presence).  Even just tying him 10 feet away so you can ignore him can help. 

The other thing I am prone to doing with a dog like that (and you can only do this once so it's got to impress) -- I may literally get so angry I may bang a door with a slam as I leave.  Leave him alone (and honestly for this I DO use a crate -- you aren't going to turn the crate into a punishment but he needs a place to realize he needs to cool off because this just isn't going to happen. so crate, small room, somewhere with no toys and nothing stimulating or relaxing.  BARREN)

Then I come back in and talk to them.  If he still won't meet your eyes and he's still defiant, leave again for another 5 minutes.  I've done this over and over and over.  I'm not your toy.  I'm not going to be abused by you or hurt by you.  I WILL LEAVE. 

Keep your 'away time' short.  If you come back and he's happy, tail wagging, eager to see you, then you sit down on the floor with him (still leashed) and offer your hand to make friends.  If he gets nipping BACK TO STEP ONE.

A dog this dominant takes a long time to really learn this.  He's been a successful bully for months. 

Wearing him out?  Yep -- it's essential. 

But I'd hand-feed this boy a kibble at a time.  He makes nice with the mouth every time or he doesn't eat.  He learns to have a soft mouth on your hand or you walk away.  You may take hours to feed him half a cup of kibble, but once you make the point he will learn it.

Then generalize it to other humans -- again, the teeth must NEVER EVER touch skin. 

At the same time -- he's gotta have time TO chew.  Encourage nylabones, frozen washcloths, etc.  But when he touches skin it's not enough to just offer him a toy.  He's GOT to understand you just plain can NOT put your teeth on a human hand.  Standing up and being rigid so he can immediately see he's crossed that line.  As soon as his posture breaks and he gives you some sort of submissive look then you can offer him something to chew and release your foot from that leash.  But I'd let him self-correct (you don't have to touch him -- let him pull ... you just stand on the leash if he decides to have a hissy fit.

the problem is, unless you get him to respect humans, he's doomed.  It will get worse -- and he's in the throes of teething now but he hasn't gotten the teenager rebellion thing yet.

It's not a book that is in vogue at this point but I still think Carole Lea Benjamin's "Mother Knows Best" is one of the best books about a difficult dog ever.  Taking your cue from a mother dog is important.  Letting them see tru expression on your face, and a rigid posture -- it can carry enormous authority.  And he's never learned any respect.  This isn't just "a behavior".  In this world biting a human will get you euthanized.

calliecritturs

In this world biting a human will get you euthanized.

That is honestly my biggest fear - which is the only reason I took him on (not that I NEED another dog to work with right now!) I do NOT want to see him put down - but if this behavior continues after he's adopted - I'm very fearful of what a vet might suggest.

He's got loads of chewies to chew on all over the place - he and the puggle are both heavy chewers - so he's def. got the appropriate things to chew on and toys to play with, although he's not much interested in toys....

I've got a leash on him - it's a longer one... he wants to spend time with me on the bed  - but I'm NOT allowing it. He puts his paws on, I say off, and tug the leash. It's quite obvious that he's never been taught boundaries...

I don't like being "mean" with him - but I've got no choice!  No - I will NOT hit him or throw him around, but I cannot be gentle with him. I've got a pen set up for him - empty, no toys or bones, just a small cat bed (it was for the kitten...) that's going to be his 'chill' space... I have to empty the crate - but that will be his sleeping place. He's used to being crated, thankfully.

Keep the suggestions coming! my arms thank you guys!

erica1989

I don't like being "mean" with him - but I've got no choice!  No - I will NOT hit him or throw him around, but I cannot be gentle with him. I've got a pen set up for him - empty, no toys or bones, just a small cat bed (it was for the kitten...) that's going to be his 'chill' space... I have to empty the crate - but that will be his sleeping place. He's used to being crated, thankfully.

There's honestly a difference between being "mean" and being authoritative.  think of that teacher -- that ONE teacher you had (or was somewhere in your school) and NO one crossed her.  She wasn't mean -- she just plain didn't give an inch and you KNEW when she looked at you that you'd transgressed.  It's that "look".  In fact, if she had a 'saying' -- something that told everyone "oh brother --we are TOAST!" -- use it.  It lends credibility.  You are simply being the mother the little stinkpot NEVER had.  He has to learn there are boundaries -- so you become the immovable object.  STanding on a leash close to his head is gold.  If he barks ... fine.  Just plain don't move.  Then finally look down at him and say "are *you* done?   *my* turn"

My dogs all know ... and I don't use it very often ... but that ONE time in a zillion when I stand up to full height (ok -- so it's not very tall and you KNOW that) but make all my soft bulk RIGID, fists on my hips and GLARE at them with narrowed eyes.

WHOA ... she's ticked. 

But when I add that one phrase "WHAT ... do you think you are doing?" in an absolutely deadly you-are-sooooo-fubarred voice.  You expect an answer.  You really truly do.  Dog or not .. you DO expect an answer to that question.

The answer you want is submission.  lowered eyes, averted eyes that can't bear to look at your displeasure ...THAT is the answer you want.  And it's darned near verbal.

He doesn't know how to 'say' that yet.  Because he's full of himself and no one has ever taken him down a peg.  Someone hurt him probably -- or at least scared his little terrier butt into the next county ... but because it was cruel it made the wrong impression.  He feared it ... he didn't respect.

The trainer we work with in Kissimmee who is SO darned good -- she taught me that "what do you think you're doing?" phrase -- and by gosh it works well.  Yeah -- it's a bunch of words to them, but it is such a NATURAL thing for you and I to say, and we can put SO much emphasis into every single one of those words.  It is a completely understandable statement dog-wise.  They really get it.  IF they've been taught respect.

So ... you're just going to take him thru R-E-S-P-E-C-T 1-0-1 (and no ... Aretha Franklin did NOT teach that one!! you will!!)  But he has to read you physically.  He has to see your joints and skin tighten ... after you stand like that for 30 seconds you will ACHE ... if you do it right.  You literally need to bunch your muscles up to make yourself THAT physically rigid.  Stand with your feet apart, fists on hips (again it's a sign of rigidity).

Practice the 'voice' -- in the car.  You can do 1000 emotions in your voice.  And just by the space and pacing in your words you add another whole depth to a command. 

Every.    Word.    Becomes.   A.   SENTENCE!!! ----------- it's very effective.  A raised eyebrow, An almost imperceptible further deepening of your voice but ***quieter***.

Even a small phrase like

'YOU ... are  .... toast!"  

Just some new phrase he's NEVER heard.  But stand there and just STARE at him ... this will be so different, he will know he's gotta listen.

And beyond that -- you give him ZERO real freedom -- NILIF every single moment.  And he screws up?  He's back to square one.  The consequences for hurting a human have to be dire. 

But keep ALL your sessions very very short.  You don't want him to *forget* your face.  You honestly want him accountable over and over and over.  You check back in and look at him.  Still defiant -- you're gone.  Does his expression open up?  aha -- I can work with that. 

But when you sit back down and hand him SOMETHING to chew on -- make it good (cold even) but then soften your tone and give him a chest rub.  It's forgiveness on a doggie scale.  He has to learn there are GOOD things about humans. 

And that takes mega mega patie

nce with a dog like this -- because you have to set him up to BE good.  (cos he's not naturally)

Also -- I just thot of this.  Another wonderful game. 

use a treat that is beyond irresistible.  Something smelly -- go ahead -- something illegal or not good for him.

Take a piece in each hand.  position him in front of you and just sit down and stare into space, closed fists on your knees.  Then ... just say his name ... in a completely neutral tone.  His name.

the INSTANT his eyes flash to you shove the food at his mouth. 

Again .. look away but be very aware of what he's looking at.  Outwait him ... (have your foot on the leash -- you need him close) and again ... just say his name.  The instant his eyes flicker to you reward ...

then ... draw the game out ... say his name having your hand on a piece of kibble.  No ulterior motives.  No other command.  Just his name.  The instant he looks at you toss the piece to him. 

But you want him to think HIS name on your lips is the most wonderful sound on the planet.  This is how you begin to build a bond.  It's a new thing for him. 

Oh - believe me - I have THAT voice. I've got that 'school marm' tone and glare - as some would say. I've had that 'eye' down since before I could talk - the stories my mom could tell are hillarious! But I have the tone and I'm not afraid to use it! (In fact - I had to use it on Casey tonight at the park... some kids came in and started to run around, and he conviently forgot his 'leave it' command and proceeded to chase and bark - as soon as I stood up and said he name he retreated and sat by my side like a good little boy!)

I don't have a problem being stern with him - becuase he needs to learn. It just kills me that I can't snuggle with him and treat him like a normal pup - becuase he's NOT normal (hence, the 'mean' word...).

I took the older guys to the park and left him in his pen with his kitty bed and a chew bone to relax. he's much calmer now - I don't know if the running around wore him out - or if the chill time helped - it's probably a combo of both.

I was able to do some belly rubs and clip some of his tallons before we left for the park - got one foot done before he got antsy - but NO biting! I was so happy with him. He wasn't thrilled aboutt he belly rubs - but he didn't fight it - he just didn't seem sure of what was going on.

I like the sound of that game - I will have to see what I can dig out of my fridge to start working on that tomorrow!

 Some of his behavior reminds me of baby Bugs.  He never really chomped on you but he was an incessant mouth-er - I basically got to the point that I always had something to chew with me at all times and i stuck it in his mouth.  This went on for absolute ages.  You know i have much less experience than you or others but it worked- eventually.  Now you can count on him to greet everyone with a toy or three LOL 

erica1989

he's much calmer now - I don't know if the running around wore him out - or if the chill time helped - it's probably a combo of both.

 I don't think we got to rub B's belly until he was about 18 mos and it wasn't for a lack of trying - he hated it and would squirm like mad if you tried and then mouth.  He would get up and try to provoke play if you went over to him while he was calm in order to pet him.  Again that just took time.  He will just flip over now and stare at you like oh yoo hoo rub my belly please.

He was literally hogtied in order to do nails (it took both of us and we would be sweating like fools from the effort) and now he sees the dremel and lays down

B still has stone cold deaf moments.  But it is rare and manageable, I never for the life of me thought he'd ever come back when called, but he got it and was the star down stay student at his classes.  Once focused he is zen like LOL.  Heck he even retrieves the stupid foam duck instead of the real ones - I cannot tell you how bizarre that still seems to me

Ah the good old days - I tell you this because much of what you describe is stuff we dealt with and B is a good dog, still fairly hyper and way too clever but he came around in time.  We are having his first serious behavioral problem at age 4 which stinks but I think we thought we were in for worse in the first few months.

One thing that he really needs is structure, constant NILIF, and stubborn patience.  Little Jack will be OK, he just needs to be kept on top of and your abilities and experience are so much greater than mine when I got Bugsy you will be fine.  The family that adopts him should really be active, assertive and best case scenario want a dog to do classes/activities with.  I bet Jack would respond well to challenges 

Hang in there

=[

well, after a day of extreme up and downs - Jack will be going back to stay Wednesday. He picked a bad fight with Callie this evening - and would NOT back down. I can't have her stressed out like this when she's finally doing so well (she also has an infection..which needs to heal!) He's gotten hugely posessive of toys and bones seemingly over night, attacked Callie over a squeaky toy (yes, they are put away now unless the dogs are seperate)

He's afraid of the pool today...not sure why. He loved it yesterday. We tried some hide and seek games, but he knew I had the food and one point and had no interest in finding it himself. He also does not want to be outside - barks and carries on at the door- he loved it yesterday.

We've got a solid sit and lay down - and a so-so army crawl. He has no concept of house training, which is frustrating to me as well.

I just don't get how he does SO well, and then an hour later turns into this demon puppy. My behaviorist contacted Sue Sternburg about him - and she thinks he's workable. Boy - I sure hope he is

Pup is in timeout again... dogs will be kept seperate for the rest of the night I guess :'(

 I'm so sorry Erica

I never had to deal with fear or guarding issues - he sure sounds a confused pup and poor Callie!!

We did have what I termed 'devil dog' or 'bewitching hour' but once I realized he was just terribly hungry and fed him earlier he settled.

Thank you for what you have done for him and I hope it turns out OK for him

Me too =[

Now he's being totally fine - a normal pup. He started whining - he had to pee. We went outside, peed; and Callie followed - she had to go too (darn UTI!). They walked around outside for a bit, and were fine - like nothing had happened.

He's hanging out with my brother now...and I don't hear any 'ouch!' so I guess it's going ok. He's just got me so stumped... and I'm so concerned about him. But the fact that Sue deemed him 'ok' has given me some comfort - usually she's the first to say 'he's got to go'.