Should I stop the "fight"?

Im sorry your having to go through this.  Kayla and Minnie loved to get into it with each other but it was nothing serious.  I just think that was what they enjoyed doing, they did really love each other though.  They always slept on top of each other and Minnie looked up to Kayla and copied everything she did.  Kayla was the boss around here.  They enjoyed looking at each other and growling while they ate, but were both wagging thier tails (I know that doesnt mean they are happy) but you could just tell it was a game between them.  Minnie would love to growl at Kayla while she had a bone... she would take her bone over to where Kayla was seeping and start growling at her while she was asleep.  Sometimes when Minnie would really get growling loud and crazy Kayla would go lick her right inside her mouth...  same with Lucy if Lucy ever growled at Kayla, Kayla would just go lick her face and stand over her head even tho Lucy is way bigger than Kayla was.
 
Only two or three times did they ever get into it and we just had to yell HEY a few times really loud and they stopped on their own.  They were always home alone together when we were gone... but like I said they were not very serious about it all and did love each other a lot.  They knew that Kayla was boss. 
 
You probably have two females who want to be the boss and thats why its getting so serious, neither is willing to accept the other as the boss.  Liek mine to me knew Kayla was boss but had fun messing around with it... and I think the few fights were just when someone was not in the mood, but since they were established they were not too bad.  Just thought Id share my experiences.
 
I hope the behaviorist can help you! 

Well, they are both rescues so their ages are approximate- Roxy is 16-18 months old and Zoey is 9-12 months old.  Roxy is smaller (25 pounds) and Zoey weighs 32 pounds.

Sandra - The single most important thing we did (helped the most) was really enforcing the NLIF program ALL the time.  It took their focus off of each other and put it back on us.  For Sassy (who we named that because of her nature []) it calmed her down and made her realize she wasn't the little "princess" that she thought she was.  For Buffy, it helped give her confidence that we were in charge.  After the first few fights, it was obvious that Buffy was afraid and didn't trust us to take care of her (at least it appeared that way to me - and I couldn't blame her). 

I have all my dogs on a fairly strict NILIF program, but there is room to tighten it up, so I will do so.  Tanker, my 11 year old male, is clearly the boss but I think the girls may be vying for second in command (Patricia McConnell says in her book "The Other End of the Leash" that most conflict occurs in middle management!).  I watched them play closely tonight (they play all the time) and I would say that Zoey is more dominant.  Roxy often licks Zoey's chin.  Even though they play real rough, at the first real yelp, all the playing stops.  Most of the time Roxy is pinned on the bottom, but as soon as Zoey lets her up Roxy will jump on Zoey and the playing resumes.  They seem to be enjoying themselves.  They are playing so nicely tonight that I almost believe I dreamed the whole incident this morning!  Even after the fight this morning, ten minutes later they were curled up together on the bed. I am at a loss!

I emailed the rescue to ask if they have ever used a behaviorist but haven't heard back from them yet.  I called my vet's office and they gave me the names of two people that may be able to help- one has degrees in animal behavior and trains the K-9 dogs for area police departments (protection, tracking, search and rescue).  He also raises German Shepherds.  I'm going to call him to find out what he charges for a consult.  I hope I can afford him!

Thanks for sharing your stories and for giving me great advice.  I'll keep you informed of any developments!

Nope- not gonna use that trainer/behaviorist.  Googled him and found an article describing his training techniques- he was giving dogs on prong collars leash corrections and sounding very "old school" (most important thing is to go through the door first and proper position for walking, etc.).  Sounds way too much like CM. 
 
I'll have to research the other referral from my vets, but now I've lost all faith.  Maybe I will call the local SPCA tomorrow morning...

"I would say that Zoey is more dominant.  Roxy often licks Zoey's chin." 
 
It's so interesting that you mention this.  Buffy (the older) constantly licks Sassy's face and ears.  I thought that meant that Buffy was being submissive to Sassy and mentioned it to the behaviorist and she smiled and said "not necessarily".  Now that I see it more, I realize that it's a dominant act on Buffy's part.  Sort of like saying "hold still while I do this" and she even gets sort of demanding about it.  Anyway - that's just my take on it and I've yet to figure out who "thinks" they're dominant.
 
 
[linkhttp://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=157&A=1009&S=0&EVetID=220148]http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&C=157&A=1009&S=0&EVetID=220148[/link]
 
This link has some useful information I've read and reread many a time.  I know exactly how you feel about seeing the fight and then seeing them playing later.  Sassy & Buffy seem to love each other 99% of the time, it's that darn 1% that can be so upsetting.  I agree about not using a behaviorist that uses the wrong approach such as harsh corrections.  The last thing you need is more aggression.  The woman we went to was wonderful. 

Cathy, how did you find your behaviorist?  Now that I have decided to get one I'm worried I will get the wrong one!  So much hinges on what they tell me (if its safe to keep Zoey) that I want to make sure I get one who really knows their stuff!
 
I can't remember where I read the chin licking thing... I've read so many behavior books they all run together in my brain.  I'll have to look it up (except my sister and I regularly swap dog books, so I may not even have the book I read it in here!).

You know, I've wracked my brain all day trying to remember how I found the woman we went to.  Someone on idog gave me the link for a national registry (Ann maybe).  I would try Googling "animal behaviorists in ?" and see what comes up.  I'll try to remember what the link was in the meantime.

Was it apdt.com?  I've already looked there and there are no certified trainers/behaviorists in my area (nearest is about an hour away), which really surprised me since Syracuse is not a huge city by any means, but its not tiny either.

www.cpbdt.org
I think this is where I found the woman I used.  It looks like it has quite a few more listings than the apbt.com site.  Hope you can locate someone near you.

If you don't have any luck at the SPCA, try the nearest vet college.
 

                                      Sibling Rivalry

In the canine world of dominance and submission, aggression is a natural, innate tendency that many dogs will experience at one time or another. The problem is instinctive. Although a myriad of issues may complicate the situation, when it comes down to it they all require leadership.  If the position of Alpha male or female is confused then they have to take the position of leader themselves, irrespective of whether they want or are capable of fulfilling that role.

Dogs are pack animals and hierarchical rules dictate how they behave around each other. Left to themselves, most canines easily slip into their roles. The pyrotechnics erupt when they disagree about their place in the pack.

Although there are no absolutes, bringing together dogs with too many similar characteristics — same sex, same age, same breed,  (brothers or sisters from the same litter for example) —may spark conflict. So many commonalties make it difficult to settle who is the Alpha dog. Hormonal surges also have an effect. Other times the cause is redirected aggression — attacking one#%92s companion out of frustration when agitated about the postman#%92s arrival, for example.

Can You Fuel the Fire?

Often, you can inadvertently stoke the fire. People can disturb the hierarchical balance by rushing to protect the would-be subordinate from being “bullied” or granting him/her liberties, such as being petted first, which your dog may consider his due. The lower dog may now feel bold enough to challenge the other. “People need to understand that dogs have their own set of social rules, whereas most dog owners want democracy,”
 
How to Douse the Fire

Prevention, of course, is the preferred route. It#%92s important that puppies socialise with other dogs – in puppy socialisation classes or in the park, for example. This way, they learn the unspoken but strict rules of canine society. Spaying and neutering not only prevent unwanted litters but these procedures also reduce aggression though not in bitches, always neuter only one of the dogs, the least dominant one. Exercise also works wonders and obedience training is usually a must.

After the dogs have been together a while and are getting along, an insignificant scuffle or two might erupt. In theory, all dogs should be able to work it out together as long as the owners don#%92t interfere. Owners must heed mounting tensions. Watch for eye-to-eye contact between your dogs, as well as stiffening and shouldering. “As soon as you see signs of trouble that you#%92re uncomfortable with, take steps, don#%92t wait for fights to happen because that changes the dynamics considerably.”
        
Often the problem can be relieved if; instead of protecting the perceived underdog the owner supports the hierarchy. Determine which is the more dominant dog and reinforce that position by feeding, greeting or letting the top dog out first. Usually this will help, but not always. “The problem with that approach is that it#%92s often difficult to tell who should be the lead dog “Secondly, it#%92s really difficult for owners to play favourites with their dogs.”
        
 
 
 
Put Your Paw Down

Experts agree it#%92s crucial that you take a strong role. When owners face a tough sibling rivalry case, I tell them to establish his or her own place as leader as a first priority.

First, I suggest that the owners make both dogs “work for everything.” Before they#%92re fed, given a treat or taken out for a walk, you should order the dogs to sit or lie down. The same applies to demands for attention. And finally, he suggests that you regularly practice the stay and release commands, even if your dogs are just going from one room to another.
        
If your dogs indicate they#%92re about to fight, calmly, but forcefully, intervene. "The approach is, ‘I don#%92t care who started it, both of you, down, “You basically tell them: ‘you don#%92t have to worry about her, and you don#%92t have to worry about him. You have to worry about me.”#%92

Calling in the Pros.

If your dogs are still regularly warring, I suggest enlisting an animal behaviourist. Animal behaviourists are not Vets. The difference is often akin to seeking the help of a psychiatrist versus that of a psychologist.
        
Occasionally, a veterinarian will recommend drugs for one or both dogs. Usually, though, medication should be a last resort, as it fails to fix the underlying cause — household dynamics.
        
Until the problem is solved, keep bickering dogs separated or on halter leashes so you can easily pull them apart if a fight ensues. It#%92s best not to grab either dog — by the tail or anywhere else — during a fight. Stepping between two battling canines can be dangerous.

Reaching a Resolution.

When all is said and done, sibling rivalries usually can be resolved, but not always. Sometimes you#%92re unwilling or unable to implement the necessary changes; or genetics or socialisation shortcomings are intractable. If that#%92s the case, the best solution may be to find another home for one of the dogs.
 
 

Well, went out yesterday and bought Zoey a crate and also brought Roxy's crate in from the garage.  Thought they each might benefit from a safe place they can call their own.  Also will crate Zoey when we are not home (rescue said she was crate trained).  Roxy has always
hated her crate- I never could get her to like it.  Fed them dinner in their crates and also their once weekly marrow bones, but otherwise no one will go near them.  Boy, they take up a lot of space.  I can hardly maneuver in my bedroom anymore!

Also have begun separate walks with separate training times.  I didn't want to have to take separate walks because it means half as many walks per dog during the week and twice as many walks for me on the weekends, but I think alone time might be good for them.  I have also tightened up NILIF (am making them sit for pets, which I was not doing before). 

There was no fighting or aggression at all yesterday- they really seem to like each others company.  So hard for me to believe they were at each others throats Friday morning!  I will still look around for a behaviorist (didn't call the SPCA like I was going to, shame on me!), but will resume the search Monday. 

Hope all this effort pays off and Zoey and Roxy learn to live peacefully!

Thanks for all the advice!

I would reconsider the separate walks.  I find the walk to be a great way to establish pack order.  The walk will help develop the pack dynamic if done properly.
 
I would walk one on your right and one on your left.  They should both be holding a position BEHIND you for the entirety of the walk.  Over the next week progress to having them walk on one side or the other. 
 
Also, add about 15-20 minutes to however long you are walking them for.  Walking out the social tension can help decrease the frequency of scuffles.
 
 

Walking out the social tension can help decrease the frequency of scuffles.

 
A tired dog is a good dog.  Walking helps because it uses up energy that might otherwise be utilized for bickering LOL, and it also provides a classical conditioning opportunity (hmmm, when that other dog is around, I get to go for a nice walk - I like that other dog), that doesn't involve the same danger that food treats do.