The role of empathy and humanising in understanding dogs.

    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: brookcove

    That's a really good point about "coddling". I always heard the same, don't coddle a fearful dog. That is TRUE almost ALL the time. But there's some point where you know your dog and know it won't break his psyche to provide a little physical support. Canids in packs don't pet each other when something scary is happening but pups in a den will curl up together when nervous. Letting your dog sit next to you during a scary thunderstorm isn't anthropomorphizing, it's going back to his neophyte (puppy) state. That horse is out of the barn already, we may as well use it to comfort our dogs.

    For years I ignored Ben as his thunderphobia got worse. I tried drugs, crating, wrapping - he's just getting worse and worse.

    Finally we had an awful year of storms and I said to myself, "Ben's going to be eleven this year. He's going to be dead in just a few years, if I'm lucky, maybe sooner if I'm not. If I make him worse I'll just deal with it." I invited him up on the bed during a particularly bad storm that raged for hours.

    I didn't pet him, I made him "stay" at first because he actually doesn't like the bed, but I did make sure he knew he was welcome to seek contact. And he did, laying with his head under my arm most of the night.

    The next few storms he got more relaxed, and after that he'd automatically jump up on the bed if a storm came up, and now if I'm not here and a storm comes through, I can tell he's been up on the bed, though he normally doesn't lay there when we are gone.

    Before I tried this with Ben, I did this with puppies. That's where I got the idea. Actually, I got the idea from orphan lambs. The first few nights I'll sleep with a weak orphan lamb right in the bed. A lamb can literally die of loneliness. That's not true of a pup but I found that you can greatly decrease the first two or three night blues if you [gasp] let the pup sleep with you.

    Then I crate the pup halfway through the night (I have to get up to potty the pup anyway) - the pup has meanwhile had some daytime crate training and knows the crate isn't awful. Then after a couple more nights the pup is ready to sleep in the crate all night.

    You have to be careful. It's easy to spoil a dog and hard to undo spoiling. But it's easy to avoid if you just remember that you set the rules - even for coddling, lol.


    Great post and you make a good point.

    Although some dogs aren't bothered by much of anything, including thunder storms, I do think it is only natural for a dog to "duck and cover" and be near packmates and their leader to feel safe.

    My old dog used to come jump into my bed during a storm. She felt safe next to me, and would lay so she could feel me (my energy[;)]) So, I just acted very relaxed, stretched, and yawned. I did not pet her or make high pitched noises in a "coddling" way, but just letting her be with me calmed her down and got her to relax.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: jones

     ...but not about the empathy/sympathy issue. I guess, to be honest, that's because I find the latter a little less intellectually engaging. ... 

     
    I feel a little less glee because empathy/sympathy is part core to my self awareness to project.  Especially empathy because of it abstract and creative nature.
     
    • Gold Top Dog
    There is actually a LOT of thought in the dog world now that the old hypothesis of "don't cuddle a scared dog or you'll reinforce the fear!" is quite false, at least in the generalized version most people speak of. This catch phrase goes back a long way, and it shows up in more books than I care to see, however with new research and understanding of emotions and the brain, some (many) ;people are really beginning to question the truthfulness of that idea. Many people now, in the world of dealing with truly fearful/shy/aggressive dogs, are discounting that statement, with what we now know about the brain, the limbic system, fears, and other emotions.
     
    Most of my sources come from online groups, so I can't just copy/paste their information, but if anybody is interested in reading and learning more, I'll happily send you to those groups to read for yourself.
     
    There are numerous posts and articles on those sites that involve this very discussion, and they begin to prove wrong the idea of "cuddling being reinforcing" to the dog, because of the extent of emotions and the fact that you cannot directly reinforce, nor punish emotions. Behaviours, yes - emotions, no. Classical conditioning is what begins to delve into emotional responses, which is separate from operant conditioning.
     
    Just a thought, since I've seen a lot of people here with the notion of "don't cuddle the dog!". I live with a person-fearful dog who will be three this year, she's been fearful from a puppy, so I've put a lot of time, resources, and energy into learning as much as possible, so I personally have found this evidence quite interesting indeed, not to mention quite useful in learning about fears and the complexity of their interactions in the brain.
     
    The idea that wolves do not cuddle/comfort each other in the wild is not well understood either, and again falls back into the realm of treating dogs like wolves, when they are not one and the same. Many, many social species (like dogs, humans, apes, parrots, etc) do show evidence of empathy towards each other, and there have been occurrences of evidence of this in dogs too. Searches through different science journals and studies will show you this.
     
    Kim MacMillan
    • Gold Top Dog
    because of the extent of emotions and the fact that you cannot directly reinforce, nor punish emotions. Behaviours, yes - emotions, no. Classical conditioning is what begins to delve into emotional responses, which is separate from operant conditioning.

     
    That is exactly how I have been thinking about it ever since I started questioning the "don't coddle" tenet. Applying classical behavior conditioning to emotions seems dodgy at best... perhaps left over from the time when dogs were widely believed not to have emotions at all, not even fear. To tell you the truth I greatly regret not "coddling" my puppy at those rowdy playtimes, and will probably always wonder how things may have gone differently if I had.
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

    I live with a person-fearful dog who will be three this year, she's been fearful from a puppy, so I've put a lot of time, resources, and energy into learning as much as possible, so I personally have found this evidence quite interesting indeed, not to mention quite useful in learning about fears and the complexity of their interactions in the brain.


     
    So do you coddle your dog or not? what are the results in your dog by doing (or not doing) that? 
     
    Like they were discussing before, one thing is to be empathetic and another one sympatethic, animals are empathetic which is nothing wrong about it, sympatethic is what might bring problems to your freaful dog
    • Gold Top Dog
    I think there may be a difference in coddling and comforting.

    ORIGINAL: espencer

    So do you coddle your dog or not? what are the results in your dog by doing (or not doing) that? 

    Like they were discussing before, one thing is to be empathetic and another one sympatethic, animals are empathetic which is nothing wrong about it, sympatethic is what might bring problems to your freaful dog
    • Gold Top Dog
    Kim, I would love you to point me to those groups. This interests me, not just because I 'indulge' in cuddling my dog when she's very frightened, but because I've been thinking more about what dogs really want from us and entertaining the idea that it's not all of what we seem to think they want from us.

    espencer, I suggested earlier in the thread what I meant by coddling and what I meant by comforting and how I believed them to be different things.

    On the note of sympathy.... I've been thinking about it a little, but I still haven't got it sorted out in my head. It occurred to me today, as I let my rabbit out to go lie on the cool tiles because she looked hot, that I only really noticed she looked hot because I felt hot. She doesn't cope well with the heat and probably was feeling uncomfortable long before I was, but it didn't occur to me to check on her until I started feeling hot. That makes me a bad bunny mum, but it did make me consider the role of sympathy in our relationships with our animals in a different light.

    To what extent do we dismiss or fail to notice discomfort in our animals when we feel no sense of sympathy?
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Angelique

    ORIGINAL: brookcove

    That's a really good point about "coddling". I always heard the same, don't coddle a fearful dog. That is TRUE almost ALL the time. But there's some point where you know your dog and know it won't break his psyche to provide a little physical support. Canids in packs don't pet each other when something scary is happening but pups in a den will curl up together when nervous. Letting your dog sit next to you during a scary thunderstorm isn't anthropomorphizing, it's going back to his neophyte (puppy) state. That horse is out of the barn already, we may as well use it to comfort our dogs.

    For years I ignored Ben as his thunderphobia got worse. I tried drugs, crating, wrapping - he's just getting worse and worse.

    Finally we had an awful year of storms and I said to myself, "Ben's going to be eleven this year. He's going to be dead in just a few years, if I'm lucky, maybe sooner if I'm not. If I make him worse I'll just deal with it." I invited him up on the bed during a particularly bad storm that raged for hours.

    I didn't pet him, I made him "stay" at first because he actually doesn't like the bed, but I did make sure he knew he was welcome to seek contact. And he did, laying with his head under my arm most of the night.

    The next few storms he got more relaxed, and after that he'd automatically jump up on the bed if a storm came up, and now if I'm not here and a storm comes through, I can tell he's been up on the bed, though he normally doesn't lay there when we are gone.

    Before I tried this with Ben, I did this with puppies. That's where I got the idea. Actually, I got the idea from orphan lambs. The first few nights I'll sleep with a weak orphan lamb right in the bed. A lamb can literally die of loneliness. That's not true of a pup but I found that you can greatly decrease the first two or three night blues if you [gasp] let the pup sleep with you.

    Then I crate the pup halfway through the night (I have to get up to potty the pup anyway) - the pup has meanwhile had some daytime crate training and knows the crate isn't awful. Then after a couple more nights the pup is ready to sleep in the crate all night.

    You have to be careful. It's easy to spoil a dog and hard to undo spoiling. But it's easy to avoid if you just remember that you set the rules - even for coddling, lol.


    Great post and you make a good point.

    Although some dogs aren't bothered by much of anything, including thunder storms, I do think it is only natural for a dog to "duck and cover" and be near packmates and their leader to feel safe.

    My old dog used to come jump into my bed during a storm. She felt safe next to me, and would lay so she could feel me (my energy[;)]) So, I just acted very relaxed, stretched, and yawned. I did not pet her or make high pitched noises in a "coddling" way, but just letting her be with me calmed her down and got her to relax.

     
    I agree, brilliant post.... I think we need to break out of the physical comfort=coddling mindset, because there are times you can do it without spoiling them or nurturing their fear - you just have to be aware of what you are doing and go into it with your eyes wide open, not hearet opne/eyes shut.  I think brookcoves post is an excellent example of giving a dog a "coping strategy" and sometimes a little physical comfort can be a way of achieving this.....  I also think the point about the dog's age and how much longer he was likely to be around was poignant and relevant.  Sometimes it takes something like that to make us open our minds to the fact we may have been approaching the situation wrong. 
     
    IRT Angelique.... I've done that too!  Weird how stretching and yawning seems to do the trick.  I've found eating helps too - no seriously, it really does!  No one (human or dog) will settle down to eat if they're in immediate danger.  So lolling on the sofa with a snack is a way to show the dog, look, I'm not scared.  Really.  Thats my story and I'm sticking to it!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Yes, there is an inherent difference between comfort and coddling. As per the dictionary terms:
     
    Coddling:



    1.
    to treat tenderly; nurse or tend indulgently; pamper: to coddle children when they're sick.
     
    Comfort:




    1.
    to soothe, console, or reassure; bring cheer to: They tried to comfort her after her loss.



    2.
    to make physically comfortable.




    6.
    a person or thing that gives consolation
     
    I do not "coddle" my dogs in the sense that I pamper them. I do, however, comfort them if the need for comfort arises. If Gaci is ever put in the position that she gets anxious, scared, and fearful, I will remove her from the situation, talk quietly and slowly to her (in most aroused dogs high-pitched or quick tones result in more arousal), and perhaps perform some TTouch with her, usually with her in my lap or beside me (it's such a wonderful method to work with fearful dogs). She will almost immediately calm down, you can feel her body relax under your hands. I do things that physiologically and emotionally comfort her. So I suppose in your terms, yes, that's very much comforting her, and to some they will perceive it I'm sure as coddling, if they do not differentiate between the two.
     
    One thing I think we all have to keep in mind, is that we're dealing with a highly social species who is living with another highly social species and very non-specific ways. Dogs interact with us like dogs, and we interact with dogs like people. We can't interact with dogs like dogs, just like dogs cannot interact with us like people. In saying that, I do think there is a fundamental difference between how dogs may reassure other dogs, and how humans reassure other dogs, and our dogs take note of that.
     
    In dog-dog interactions, such similar stimuli are grooming sessions, sleeping/cuddling sessions, and mother-pup interactions. These are also all things that release feel-good chemicals in the dogs. In the wild (oh my, talking about wild!), if you wish to reference this, for those wolf-dog believers, dogs have very different ways of comforting others. In the den it starts with the mother coming to the crying pup's side, or the siblings coming to that pup's side and laying with it (usually in a large huddle). As the pups grow it develops into a body language, with a very complex subset of signals, postures, eye movements, and other motions that allow one dog to say "It's okay, I've got it" or "Come now, there's nothing to fear" to another dog/wolf. When dogs communicate these things with other dogs, it's very easy for them to "talk" to each other, if you will, about their intentions. No, adult dogs do not tend to cuddle (although more and more people are beginning to believe otherwise as well) other dogs to comfort them, but they have very species-specific ways of sending the exact same message - with a glance, with a head gesture, with a body block, just by one leading the way to encourage the other to follow - these are all their way of comforting and reassuring the other that they are out of danger, that there is no need to fear.
     
    And then perhaps we can delve into more evolutionary discussion, of perhaps in the wild, people are right in that there does not appear to be a lot of comforting/cuddling going on. But is that because dogs cannot learn to do such things and respond in such ways? Or, perhaps, is it because in the wild, it does not fit the optimality of the species? Perhaps, is it not something that animals in the wild, in their niche, need to do to survive? Perhaps, would doing these behaviours in the wild result in higher costs - developmental costs, energetic costs, and survival costs? Animals who learn more have larger brains. Animals who learn different things have differentially sized parts of the brain. The same species, occupying two different niches, who had learned different adaptations for survival, have differently organized brains, and they use their brains differently. You can take a species from the wild, raise it in a laboratory, and raise it in a way that is quite contrary to their way of life in a niche, those animals will learn to do things that sometimes their wild counterparts never did. Perhaps it is not that wolves "can't" do it, or that it's not a "wolf" thing, or that wolves don't have those emotions, but rather in the wild there are other behaviours that better ensure survival, and that for those wolves that do perform comforting techniques, it might be more costly than it is beneficial? And maybe, perhaps, just maybe, with the domestic dog, their needs have changed? They don't live in the same niche, deal with the same perils, don't have to concern themselves with the same ways of living, so that performing such behaviours might have a more appropriate function in terms a dog's survival in a human-home? Ethology is a fascinating science, studying form and function and the differences between them as evolution proceeds, and how adaptive animals are to their environment at hand. But that's getting a bit off-topic, although there are always things to consider.
     
    In our normal lives, on a normal day, when no fear is involved, we cuddle our dogs. We lay with them on the couch, or we massage, or we pet, and we give treats, and we talk in a friendly manner to them. Dogs are VERY attuned to these things I assure you. They release endorphins, and serotonin, and all of those other 'feel-good' brain chemicals like occurs in any other social species. Dogs learn from that. They learn that these things feel good, and they most often very visibly relax in the presence of these stimuli. Just as they visibly rev up when we talk excitedly, or jump around, or roughhouse with them. They learn contextually just as we do. In saying that, dogs will often seek out the stimuli that cause them to feel good, such as the massage or the quiet, gentle vocalizations we make.
     
    Of course how we act with them is not usually how dogs interact with them. But by gosh, among all other ways we co-exist, and how long we've been co-existing with them, I think dogs realize that too. And I also think that, by living with us day in and day out, they learn what ways in which interacting with us meets the needs that they have, and the needs that they have with people can sometimes be very much different than the needs they have with other dogs. And dogs also know that we interact with them in the way that we, as humans, can interact with them. Dogs learn that "dogs do it this way, humans do it that way", they learn just as much from US as we do from them. If they didn't, we wouldn't be as successful as we are in living together as a species.
     
    If Gaci gets her toes stepped on by somebody, she will come to me immediately. She is quite a sensitive girl, and she immediately goes to that person whom she trusts (her dogparent). I'll bend down, talk to her, give her a kiss, make sure she's alright, and then tell her she's fine. It's only about 30 seconds or so, but it is my way of reassuring her that all is fine, there is nothing to fear, and that she can go on her way again. And she does just that, and is then fine. If she came to me, and I ignored her and just walked away, is that "being a good leader", as the mantras tell us is so, or is that perhaps not fulfilling a need that she as a dog, in our dog-human relationship, has at that moment? To make her feel safe, to make her feel comfortable, to reassure her? I see it as she had a need that needed to be fulfilled at that time, so I fulfilled it and the problem was solved. If she hears a strange sound she's never heard before, and if it frightens her (not many things do, but there have been a couple of sounds over the last 3 years that startled her), she will come to me immediately. I'll bend down, talk to her softly but happily, and if I can we go to investigate the sound together. And then she is fine. You would think, would you not, that if it was "coddling" her, she would repeat it everytime she heard the noise, because after all it would have to be reinforcing, right? Or that she would, as "they" call it, begin "faking fear" and keep doing what got her attention. But she doesn't do any of these things. Once I show her, in my very-human ways, that all is well, she goes on her way and is fine. Or is it not possible, perhaps, that she came to be because she was unsure, and I fulfilled her need of being reassured at that moment?
     
    I'm not trying to be anthropomorphic here, I'm really not. Of course though we can only discuss things in a human sense, because we are human, and that's how we discuss things. Terms like reassurance, comfort - they are all human constructs. But is that really considered anthropocentric?  Or is it simply acknowledging that humans are not alone in the world of emotions, and that being mammals as well, not to mention a very social species, have similar emotions and can have them helped in very similar ways? After all, if we've all evolved somewhere along the timeline, we contain the same neurochemicals, the same brain structures, is it too much to believe that other species can benefit from comfort and reassurance as well? And that, just maybe, even though we are NOT dogs, and we will never will be, that dogs can't learn human intentions (just as we learn dog intentions) and share certain emotions with us?
     
    But in the end, the question was "Do I do this?". I have said unequivocally "Yes" (but perhaps not in the way people perceive it). And then the question is "What are the results", and the answer is unequivocally "Great ones". I have had many dogs, for many years, and have had many experiences in dealing with dogs over my lifetime thus far. In all of those experiences, I can honestly say that not once have I found that comforting a truly terrified animal ever resulted in "reinforcing the fear". Not even close. At the best, I have found that it helped immensely. At the worst it did nothing, but it certainly has never reinforced the fear that they had. And I've worked with phobic dogs (thunder phobia, grooming phobia, car phobia), people-fearful dogs, other dog-fearful dogs, a dog with phantom tail, etc. Nor have I found that using comfort or reassurance has negatively impacted dogs, I have only noticed that it worked, and that all of the dogs that I have interacted with have benefitted from it, and that our relationships remained strong throughout their lives.
     
    Of course this delves into the issue of what ARE the correct ways to deal with fears and other behaviour problems in dogs (and other non-human species), in ways that dogs will understand? Things like TTouch, and using a particular pitch/tone/level of your voice, the speed with which you talk, teaching cues like "Settle" that illicit classically conditioned responses that are incompatible with the fear, etc, removing a dog from that fear-illiciting stimulus. At what point does the limbic fear and emotion become an operant, reinforcable behaviour (the point at which you can reinforce a particular behaviour), where you can reinforce unwanted behaviours? There is a line there, especially when working with counterconditioning and desensitization behaviour mod. These are the questions that interest me, because I personally am past the old mantra of "don't reinforce a dog's fears by cuddling". I want to learn more about how we can best achieve those results, and how we can best help our dogs deal with these situations and yes, how to appropriately use reassurance and comfort (not coddling.....coddling doesn't even do fellow humans much good, why would it do our dogs good?) to enhance the lives of our dogs.
     
    Kim MacMillan
    • Gold Top Dog
    [sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]Wonderful post Kim!
    • Gold Top Dog
    Wow, Kim. It was a novel, but it pretty much encompassed all my half-articulated and partially formed ideas on this topic.

    In particular, I'd like to say how important I believe it is to remember that dogs learn from us as much as we learn from them. I learnt that from my hare rather than my dog, but I think it's true of all animals. I've managed to condition my hare to some extent to respond to calming words and slow, repetetive sounds. It didn't do much to calm him at first, but I think he gradually learnt that hushing sounds from me meant no further pressure or scary stimulus would be forthcoming. Now my very presence can serve to calm him. About a month ago I woke in the middle of the night to hear him crashing around in his cage in that way that means he's lost his grip on reality and is in a blind panic. I went out, turned the light on, made my hushing noises, showed him my hand so he could smell me, asked him what was wrong in that tone I use to tell him he's being a silly boy and there's nothing to be afraid of. He was still rattled when I was done, but he calmed down pretty much straight away and as I went back to bed, I reflected momentarily on how far we had come that he would calm himself so quickly when I ran through my "calm Kit" routine. It doesn't work every time, because sometimes he's too scared to hear me, or it's me that's frightening him, but he's getting better all the time. He seems to draw comfort from patterns he knows, so I've found that the best way to help him is to develop routines and teach him with classical conditioning. All the same, a lot of the ways we communicate now are more human than hare, and I am often humbled by the realisation that he, a wild hare, has had more success learning to speak human than I, a student of animal behaviour, have had in learning to speak hare. Once I thought to look for unnatural ways in which my dog understood me, I found a lot there as well. For all the effort I put in and how hard I try, my animals consistenly outshine me and show me how easy it could be if I could only remember at all times how dependent they were on me.

    And, of course, the difference between comfort and coddling is something I've been trying to get at for a while but it's taken me a while to realise that not everyone makes the distinction between the two that I do.

    This thread has gone from a big frustration to me to a whole lot of clarification. Thanks so much to all of you that have contributed! [:)]
    • Gold Top Dog
    ORIGINAL: Kim_MacMillan

    There is actually a LOT of thought in the dog world now that the old hypothesis of "don't cuddle a scared dog or you'll reinforce the fear!" is quite false, at least in the generalized version most people speak of. This catch phrase goes back a long way, and it shows up in more books than I care to see, however with new research and understanding of emotions and the brain, some (many) ;people are really beginning to question the truthfulness of that idea. Many people now, in the world of dealing with truly fearful/shy/aggressive dogs, are discounting that statement, with what we now know about the brain, the limbic system, fears, and other emotions.

    Most of my sources come from online groups, so I can't just copy/paste their information, but if anybody is interested in reading and learning more, I'll happily send you to those groups to read for yourself.

    There are numerous posts and articles on those sites that involve this very discussion, and they begin to prove wrong the idea of "cuddling being reinforcing" to the dog, because of the extent of emotions and the fact that you cannot directly reinforce, nor punish emotions. Behaviours, yes - emotions, no. Classical conditioning is what begins to delve into emotional responses, which is separate from operant conditioning.

    Just a thought, since I've seen a lot of people here with the notion of "don't cuddle the dog!". I live with a person-fearful dog who will be three this year, she's been fearful from a puppy, so I've put a lot of time, resources, and energy into learning as much as possible, so I personally have found this evidence quite interesting indeed, not to mention quite useful in learning about fears and the complexity of their interactions in the brain.

    The idea that wolves do not cuddle/comfort each other in the wild is not well understood either, and again falls back into the realm of treating dogs like wolves, when they are not one and the same. Many, many social species (like dogs, humans, apes, parrots, etc) do show evidence of empathy towards each other, and there have been occurrences of evidence of this in dogs too. Searches through different science journals and studies will show you this.

    Kim MacMillan


    I must say I am in the camp that says don't coddle the fearful dog.  But, not exactly for the usual reason.  Newbies tend to do it on the floor or leaning down to the dog's level.  Unfortunately, human faces in proximity to both a fearful dog and the unsuspecting pup at class that might come up to try to greet it is not a good combination.  So, I tell owners to stand as a base of support for their dog, and to quietly praise any attempt by the dog to explore its surroundings, sniff another dog, or do anything "brave".  I prefer that they are not in the way if their fearful dog decides to snap at another dog that gets too close. 
    But, I do agree that we cannot change emotion, only behavior (which sometimes acts to change the emotion - fake it till you make it hypothesis).
    • Gold Top Dog
    One thing that I forgot to comment on was the idea that dogs can communicate comfort to each other. I've been thinking about that one, too. When one of our three dogs is hurt, the other two normally come up in a very quiet and subdued manner to nose at the one that's hurt. The way they hold themselves reminds me very much of the way they approach very small babies. They generally only nose once and then back off, but it strikes me that they do care when another member of the pack is distressed. I don't think they understand fear in each other, but they do recognise distress and seem to react in different ways. When one of the pack is frightened, the others gather around that one and stand and bark. They don't seem to understand that Penny is afraid of loud noises, but I guess that's what I'm here for.
    • Gold Top Dog
    One thing that I forgot to comment on was the idea that dogs can communicate comfort to each other. I've been thinking about that one, too. When one of our three dogs is hurt, the other two normally come up in a very quiet and subdued manner to nose at the one that's hurt.

    Yes! A couple of times I was sick - my dog saw that, I swear! He dropped what he was doing and set beside me quietly, leg to leg, very close, not wanting anything.
    • Gold Top Dog
    Animals do comfort one another.

    Fear of being accused of "coddling" won't stop me from comforting mine.

    Comforting is right up there with permissiveness.

    It is perceived as a sign of weakness.

    ORIGINAL: corvus

    One thing that I forgot to comment on was the idea that dogs can communicate comfort to each other. I've been thinking about that one, too. When one of our three dogs is hurt, the other two normally come up in a very quiet and subdued manner to nose at the one that's hurt. The way they hold themselves reminds me very much of the way they approach very small babies. They generally only nose once and then back off, but it strikes me that they do care when another member of the pack is distressed. I don't think they understand fear in each other, but they do recognise distress and seem to react in different ways. When one of the pack is frightened, the others gather around that one and stand and bark. They don't seem to understand that Penny is afraid of loud noises, but I guess that's what I'm here for.