need some suggestions... I'm getting to the end of my rope here

It sounds like he needs the drugs to be completely honest.  And really, isn't it worth it if it helps him feel safe?  The drugs will help with desensitization work so that hopefully you can wean him off of them, but if you can't, you'll still have a dog that doesn't go into an absolute panic each time you leave and that's a wonderful thing for everyone.  

Yea we'd like to keep our animals off drugs if possible, but it's not humane to let him continue to basically have panic attacks if you have access to something that helps relieve them imo.

My Maggie has confinement issues - we've tried everything short of drugs and still she can only be left crated for 10 minutes in the house before she starts flipping out.  She too has busted crates, in panic.  because she is fine loose, that's what we do and it works great, but ifr we couldn't I fully realize that we'd need drugs to help her out. 

If she's kenneled when we're out of town she's on a supplement for her intestinal tract to prevent stress colitis and a custom herbal calmative as well. If she ever has to go on crate rest or recieve treatment at a vet without 24 hour supervision she will need to be sedated.  I realize all of this and accept that it's something we may have to deal with if the time comes, but because she is ok mentally the vast majority of her life, we just treat as necessary.  If she wasn't, we'd use drugs and the help of a vet behaviorist.

 My first question is purely that .. a question.  Why do you say he absolutely can't be in a wire crate?  There are wire crates and then there are WIRE CRATES.  Luna requires a mega, major heavy-duty wire crate.  Double door locks (I leave her in a dane crate) is what it takes.  Anything less than the big huge mega heavy-duty ones and she breaks the locks or tries to bend the door (and you'd think she was a pit bull with the strength she has in her neck and shoulders).  BUT with the heavy duty crate she's fine.  Altho some dogs may get wigged even by a crate that is too large.

Next -- there are calmatives and then there is medication that hits the sertonin center of the brain.  And THOSE **too** are intended to be handled with training.  In other words, the point isn't to simply sedate the dog into oblivion ... the point *really* of the sertonin drugs is to bring them to rationality -- so they can **think** while you retrain them.

When there is separation anxiety what it really is, is "panic" pure and simple.  And the very act of ripping and tearing and the frantic efforts to break something are, in a sense, very rewarding.  Just like if you're mad and you throw something or brake something it's the sound of something breaking or shattering that is, quite honestly, the reward.  Something within your control.

But separation anxiety often has to be managed.  I take it doggie daycare isn't an option?  How about a person who might actually keep him during the day (for pay).  Either a neighbor or someone who might be interested in it as a job.  It's just a thot.

As far as the soiling that went on -- it sounds to me like he ate his own poop -- hence the vomit that smells foul.  

That brings me to my last question --  food.

Now this is pretty much the opposite of how other folks feel on here -- I'm not interested in being flamed, but I've had a lot of luck with this myself.

Is Sammy on a high protein food?  I know it's all the rage these days to feed the highest protein food you can afford.  But particularly for a dog with SA, it may not be wise.  It can be like pouring rocket fuel into them with NO way out.  And he isn't getting a lot of exercise anyway.  So ... no, I'm not suggesting a poor quality food.  But if you are feeding kibble why not feed him some mashed, cooked veggies with kibble.  Bring his protein down to maybe 25% or lower.  No, dogs don't have to have high protein to live.  And if you get his protein level down so he's not like an idling jet waiting for somewhere to crash it *might* help the whole situation.

It's just a thought.  But it truly might help.

I'm not trying to be snarky about the crate - I've gone thru crate-breaking wtih too many dogs -- AND you can order metal pans (some dogs will just plain rip up the plastic pan in a crate and then "walk it" around so a metal pan may be a must).

 There is a member on my lab board who just got a super-crate for her lab mix who repeatedly breaks out of crates and destroys things.  She got it from this place--I guess they are hand made and welded.  She says her dog has settled into it very nicely and has not escaped.....

http://www.tristatek9.com/containers.htm

I have a few suggetsions - I'm sorry if you have heard this before and have already tried them...

1 - do you ignore him when you leave the house, and for about 15 minutes prior?  In fact, my gut is saying that with THIS dog, I would extend that to 30 minutes, to see if that would help.  Also on returning until he has fully and visibly relaxed?  (I'm talking about laying on his side, ready to sleep kind of relaxed - not bum on floor, staring at you intently and not really relaxed at all )

2 - do you leave a radio or television on for him?  I used to leave Classic FM on for my dog...   Mind you, he wasn't as panicky as Sammy - far from it. 

3 - What about leaving a worn, unwashed shirt in his bed as a kind of comforter?

4 - Do you give him "downtime" during the time when you ARE home - in other words, time that he does not have access to you and you don't look at or speak to him. 

I used to live down the road from some people with an Airedale type dog who sounds like he was a lot like Sammy.  I mean, it wasn't just "seperation anxiety".  If a dog barks all day, or soils indoors, or becomes destrcutive, we stick the SA label on him.  I'm talking about a dog who had a complete MELT DOWN each time they left the house.  So I'm just going to describe what they did, and maybe you can try it if you haven't already

The Thing With The Vase

The behaviourist instructed them to find an unusual, distinctive item that the dog had never seen before and keep it well out of the dog's sight.  (They picked up a really hideous looking vase at a charity shop, cheerfully telling the lady at the till, "oh it's not for US - it's for the dog ";)

Then, while the dog was nearby, they brought the vase out and it was a signal to EVERYONE in the room to turn their back on the dog and not speak to or look at him AT ALL.  The vase was left on display for a few seconds, and then his owner calmly put the vase away and turned around and greeted the dog as if she had only just seen him.  A few minutes later, they did it again.... and then again... and then again.... gradually building up the length of time the vase was left out and the dog "switched off" for.

After a few days, they were able to put the vase out shortly before leaving the house and just ignore him until they come hom and put the vase away.  This worked surprising well.... Last I heard the dog was able to be left in a large crate with a chew, no drugs and no vase even, and he copes alright.  He doesn't LIKE being left - but he copes. 

I am not sure whether he was on drugs at the time he went through the training and I no longer have contact with these people, but maybe this is an idea you can fit into your situation.

I know this doesn't help address the root of the problem and what's going on in his mind, but if you need an SA-proof crate, look into what is used for K9 units, military dogs, top sport/performance dogs.  Often they are referred to as "dog boxes", not a crate or kennel.

hm, that's a very interesting theory about the vase - I would have liked to try that with some of my SA dogs!

Now... I KNOW what you are going through. I had a dog jump out of the window while I was gone. How is he outside? I know with Ben - he honestly was MUCH calmer, and less stressed if he was outside. So if he was going to be alone for a SHORT period of time, he stayed in the yard (never tried to escape). If it was going to be longer, we did some calmatives for him, to mellow him out (along with desensitizing). I tried everything, music, TV, shirt in the crate, crate completely covered, leaving him out, leaving him with Casey or the cats, carrying my keys with me all day, running a few miles before I left (he was NOT an active dog....) - none of that helped.

Chances are, he does not panic the whole time you are gone, rather just the beginning of your leaving. Have you tried going out a different door when you leave?

I agree with Stardog on this one (drugs for now), but Callie's got some good suggestions, too. Look at food, etc. I do think that just putting him in a crate he won't destroy won't solve his emotional issues with SA, which would be the goal here longterm

That said, my potential to be flamed here is that I think that, regardless of busy lives, Sammy needs WAY more exercise. He's built like a runner (which could be rather unfortunate because that means he needs MORE MORE MORE than the average dog).

I'm somewhat puzzled by the crate- I've always heard that the vast majority of dogs with SA should never be crated because it just fuels their panic and allows them to seriously injure themselves trying to get out. A nice quiet, relaxing, doggy-proofed room works better. Also I think your "sneaking around" and personal anxiety about leaving aren't helping. You have to act like, and firmly believe, that your comings and goings aren't "of concern". And nothing wrong with using drugs during the rehab process.

as to am exercise- it's quite possible to work a dog's mind and body very hard in a fairly short period of time. Vigorous train-fetch games, i.e. ask for a behavior, throw the toy as reward. Free-shaping.

don't understand the comments about food. Protein doesn't provide "energy"; dogs preferentially burn fats and carbohydrates as fuel. High-protein diets are the exact opposite of "rocket fuel" diets. There are a few high-fat commerical diets intended for endurance athletes, which I wouldn't suggest feeding to non-endurance athletes, then there are a lot of very high-carbohydrate foods (i.e. the 25% or lower protein ones, i.e. most commerical kibbles) which are excellent for feeding very active working or sporting dogs but tend to turn your average pet into either a hyperactive maniac or a bloated fat unhealthy dog.

mudpuppy

I'm somewhat puzzled by the crate- I've always heard that the vast majority of dogs with SA should never be crated because it just fuels their panic and allows them to seriously injure themselves trying to get out.

Yes, and no. I think that depends on the dog. One SA dog I had, Jeagar, did SO much better uncrated and with Casey and the cats. Low music helped too. Ben, on the other hand, did NOT do better left out - he was worse (jumped through a window).

Thanks for all the ideas!

I’m going to try to answer everything in one post J  Bear with me!

He was on clomipramine for about 6 months shortly after we first got him – it allowed us to do what we needed to do in order to not surrender him right back to the humane society, honestly.  We did have a behaviorist come out as well.  I’m willing to go back to drugs if we need to, but if at all possible I’d like to make him calm himself.  I might be trying the impossible and I understand that… and I would give drugs another shot before, say, giving him up or anything.

He *destroys* metal crates.  Honestly we can’t afford the $4-600 massive ones, and that doesn’t help keeping him quiet while he tries feverously to escape. He would tip them over, rip bars out, get stuck in them.  He prefers the closed-in atmosphere of plastic crates…. And putting blankets over them doesn’t work since he pulls them in.  I can’t put clothes or pillows or anything in there since he “makes his bed” and pushes them around or chews them until his nose is raw and bleeding.  He also knocks over his water and then everything is wet all day.

We found out after a ton of trial and error he was best in a plastic crate, shoved in a closet, in a room where we spent most of our time. However, there is always the possibility that he chews out of them, as he has before.  We did the medication before and worked hard at desensitizing and he wasn’t happy but TOLERATED being in a plastic crate.  We’ve lived in the same place for two years so far, as well.

Doggy Daycare just isn’t affordable.  Honestly, in that case I’d be just as financially set to quit my job and stay home with every day.  And truthfully, I just can’t.  He’s also not good with strangers in the least, so having someone come in and take him out wouldn’t be something I’d be comfortable with.  Also he might tolerate his crate the first time in a day but he does NOT have anything to do with a second time.  The few times we had tried that (say, in a crate for two hours, someone home with him for 2-3 hours then crate again for 2 hours – nothing excessive) he’s done the MOST damage.  So someone coming to let him out mid-day just doesn’t seem like a good idea.  We do have a neighbor who’s doggie sat him when DH had to go out of town and I had work and classes but he recently had foot surgery so he wouldn’t be able to take him out.

In regards to food, he’s on a 22% protein kibble.  I understand the potential for issues with high protein diets with dogs who aren’t highly active.  He’s not on a high-protein anything, but I can cut it down even further if anyone honestly thinks that it should be below 22%.

We do ignore him when we leave.  On coming home, however, we TRY to keep it low key, but he’s usually home a good 8 hours so by the time we get home he has to PEE.  It’s tough to ignore a dog until he lays down, relaxed, when he’s dancing to go out.  So it’s probably not as low-key as it could be.  But, I do ignore him until he stops dancing and he is calm, just not lay-down-calm.

We do play radio for him, usually just put our itunes on random since we often have that type of music going on here.  Or the TV.

We can’t leave much of anything IN his crate, but we do have clothes and blankets around his crate for the smell of us.  Not sure if it’s the same effect, but again, he can’t really have much in with him.

Good idea, Chuffy, about the “down time” away from us.  We probably could do that more often.  We stopped about 6 months back, letting him cuddle on the couch with us or in bed as much.  Not eliminated it, but he can be on the other couch or something, just not laying ON us.  Trying to reduce the Velcro-ness.  But I’ll definitely try some more “alone time” where he can be in his crate or a room with a kong or something.

The Vase idea is also good, I will definitely try it.  It certainly can’t hurt!

Unfortunately, we don’t have a yard. (we rent)  So EVERY time the dog goes out, he gets a walk.  No yard for Sammy!  But also means I can’t leave him out there L Even if we put a tie-out to the porch he can “guard” people so they can’t get into their homes either.  They don’t like that very much.  Sammy, on the other hand, loves being outside because there are things to watch.  We just don’t have a house yet!  Hence also why I’m so concerned about the noise of him trying to get out…..

We do video tape him somewhat often, he does tend to be a little worse in the beginning, but it’s not unusual for him to whine for 6 or 8 hours fairly constantly.  

We can go through the basement to leave… we usually don’t since I don’t have keys to the garage door so it’s hard to lock up and if we leave through there we tend to leave the chain on the front door and then I can’t get back in either door.  Sigh.  But that’s an option to look into as well.

Lastly, Sammy DOES get exercise.  Just not in the morning.  Which as I said, is just something we can’t do right now.  I cannot get up at 3 or 4 in the AM to get to somewhere he can run off-leash since there isn’t anywhere close to here.  He gets exercise in the evening.  Honestly, when we are home, he’s a couch potato.  He has energy, and is willing to play or walk or something, but he’s more than content to snooze on the couch for hours and hours.  He totally isn’t a high-energy, high-activity level dog.  He’s at least 4 years old at this point, if not older, so he’s not a puppy either.  He is built like a runner, but we took him to an empty ball field today and he ran less than 15 minutes before he pooped out and plopped down.  He doesn’t get along with other dogs 100% so a dog park is out of the question.

Mudpuppy – he destroyed an entire room in two hours.  He can’t be left in a room with a door closed.  He ate the carpet and a door, and we rented at the time and still do.  Been there, done that, have the tshirt.  He also will NOT fetch and doesn’t like toys so much.  I do feed him breakfast in a toy that makes him work for it and we practice obedience on our walks in the AM. We also have done drugs in the past, though willing to do it again.

Phew.  Thanks again for all the suggestions; I will definitely try some of them.  And if anyone else has any more after I tried to answer all the questions, I’m all ears.  

Honestly, it just keeps getting worse and worse.  And “managing” it so far just makes it manifest in different and worse ways.  He’s really a terrific dog in most other ways, but there’s only so much one can do before you go crazy!

ETA -- we left him two hours just now and recorded him and he spent the entire time trying to get out and whining and barking.  DH rigged the crate with square aluminum bars so he couldn't get out, but it didn't stop him from trying. Sigh.  Wonder why in the last two-three days he got so so so so much worse?  I can't pinpoint anything that's different.....

mudpuppy

I'm somewhat puzzled by the crate- I've always heard that the vast majority of dogs with SA should never be crated because it just fuels their panic and allows them to seriously injure themselves trying to get out. A nice quiet, relaxing, doggy-proofed room works better.

This is not the case with all dogs.  With Sally we started with the crate.  As long as the crate is covered up with something she does fine--she gets very anxious when crated in an uncovered crate out in the open though.

We have worked her into staying uncrated in our bedroom, which is her "happy place" though.  If we had done this at first she would have torn the door up trying to escape when we left.

sillysally

We have worked her into staying uncrated in our bedroom, which is her "happy place" though.  If we had done this at first she would have torn the door up trying to escape when we left.

I fully understand this -- we tried a room with Sammy since he wasn't having a crate and he did destroy the door, the carpet near the door, the walls near the door..... and still made a ton of noise and disturbed the neighbors at the place we lived at.  Didn't work.  Would love to eventually get up to a room with Sam or be able to be left out but he just can't seem to handle all that space.

 Honestly, if I were in your situation, I would probably give him drugs.  Maybe I will get flamed for that, but sometimes there are certain things that while not ideal, are for the dog's quality of life.  It sounds like you've tried a number of things and if Sammy is just getting worse, he might just be a happier dog with some meds to help him out.....

That's where I'm leaning too.. but I've heard long-term drugs aren't exactly the best thing.  Obviously better than hurting himself or driving us crazy to the point we toss him out on his butt, but not good health-wise.  I'll have to ask the vet.  I know what our vet does best, write out Rx for drugs.  It just didn't seem to help him enough, so I need ideas as well of things to work on while he is on drugs.  they calmed him a bit but it wasn't like a totally different dog or anything, it just helped take the edge off a bit for everyone to calm down some.  But at least it would keep us from disliking our dog.... which is never a good feeling, ya know?  I know he doesn't do it on purpose, but if he hasn't caught on that after three years we ARE coming home, well then, just might need something else.