Neutralisation and defining a dog's rewards

The main issue I see with this is that if the dog is NEVER allowed to interact with other dogs until he has outgrown his "impressionable" stage, surely that clashes with socialisation?  Isn't that more likely to create fear problems and communication problems?

I would think so. Most people I know who have highly focused, competitive sporting dogs own at least three dogs and the dogs are allowed to play with each other and interact throughout the day most days.

poodleOwned

I think you have to leave your brain at the door and do not speak any evil of the master guru to survive too long on the forum.

Yeah, but if no one can come to the table with solid arguments why he isn't a training god and why his methods should be treated with extreme caution, then they can just sit there and pat themselves on the back and tell all the newcomers that there's only one reliable way and it involves turning your dog into a robot or buy prong collars and e-collars if you failed to do that. There are people on that forum that hate that guy's methods but have just learnt to shut up. I'm happy to be the person that gets flamed so people can see the other side of the argument. And so the folks that are too scared to comment see that they're not crazy for thinking differently. 

Ron, you make good points. The thing is, Penny knows when I'm running out of patience and she should do what she's told and if she doesn't then I take that to mean she's got a damn good reason not to. Sometimes she'd just rather sniff a blade of grass, but more likely she's tired, or hurting, or frightened. Kivi is learning the tone rules as well, in spite of himself, I think. He sometimes reacts without really thinking. It's important to me that they have veto rights. I don't want them to think that they have no choice but to do what I say. I would rather know when I am asking more than I think I am asking, and when I've missed something. I would take pains to establish veto rights in any animal in my care. I think it's valuable information for me to know when the animal isn't prepared to do something even for a big reward. But it goes both ways and I teach them that I have veto rights as well. Everyone has their limits, and I think that dogs get that without much trouble. Although Kivi is slow because he'll tolerate just about anything.

corvus

I would rather know when I am asking more than I think I am asking, and when I've missed something. I would take pains to establish veto rights in any animal in my care. I think it's valuable information for me to know when the animal isn't prepared to do something even for a big reward.

That's key, right there. You're still examining why they do what they do at a particular moment, as motivations can change, even though the process of OC hasn't. Initially, you phrasing had struck me as non-chalant and haphazard but that's not what you're saying. You are still involved in the discovery process of why they do what they do in a given moment, though other motivations arch over the lifetime or even part of a lifetime, there can be changes within the arch.

At least, that's what it looked like to me.

 Corvus

You are doing a god job on the forum. You maintan composure and refrain from sarcasm. Much Much better than I have or could. If you need support, you have it here.

I belong to a long list of trainers around the country that have been banned. Some of these people are truely amazing trainers. Even if I wanted to , I can't get on to say anything. I think the last time that I got bounced was for suggesting that one of his cohorts was so profoundly ignorant of how e collars worked that she/he might cause handler injury let alone dog injury if they actually use one.

The time before that I suggested that he had results so different  from the mainstream dog world on barking that he must very excited about the paper he was about to write and publish.

The time before that , they slagged my profession so I withdrew. You really can't talk to people whose only real response is to slag a profession that is responsible for the medium they are using. (I am an EE for USA members)

As I am not a dog training professional, it actually takes a truckload of time to make sure that you are totally certain about what you are writing.

I personally think it is time for either all good trianers to get up and leave and let them all stand around patting each other on the backs or start co-ordinating replies. 

One of the downsides of R+ trainers is that they generally ignore unwanted behaviour  in humans. Our club experience is that we nearly couldn't change training methods because of the niceness of the R+ trainers until a couple of us just force the issue even though we had over 70% support.

 You are welcome to contact me privately with you want material. I am a bit of a geek and info reservoir. My dogs do go out there and get titles and stuff, which despite all their carry on , most of that lot cant/ don't do. I sometimes wonder when people need this level of control over dogs whether there is an element of fear of dogs?

poodleOwned

One of the downsides of R+ trainers is that they generally ignore unwanted behaviour  in humans. Our club experience is that we nearly couldn't change training methods because of the niceness of the R+ trainers until a couple of us just force the issue even though we had over 70% support.

 You've got a point there. I'm not a pro trainer but I do use positive methods and the clicker (we are borg - I have been assimilated) but I have had to ignore some behavior in other humans, as well as my dog. Since you made the point in this thread, I'm wondering if you are supporting the trianer Corvus mentioned or disagree with him. If so, in either case, why?

ron2

You are still involved in the discovery process of why they do what they do in a given moment, though other motivations arch over the lifetime or even part of a lifetime, there can be changes within the arch.

I would hate to miss out on learning from my animals. I have mentioned this to said trainer but I honestly think it's a completely foreign concept to some people and they didn't even know how to begin to understand such a notion. I pointed out that sometimes my dog's choices make me look at something in a new way and I wouldn't want to miss out on that because I was afraid of a lapse in focus or something. I suspect it was dismissed as completely alien. Sometimes people seem to think they know more about dogs than dogs do.

 
It's interesting to think that R+ trainers might be prone to ignoring silly behaviour in humans to their detriment. We never really think much about the effect training has on they way we treat others, but I think it does have quite a big impact. My change in approach was largely due to being trained to be more aware of my impact on wild animals during my course work. It rubbed off into other parts of my life outside of work. 

corvus

It's interesting to think that R+ trainers might be prone to ignoring silly behaviour in humans to their detriment. We never really think much about the effect training has on they way we treat others, but I think it does have quite a big impact. My change in approach was largely due to being trained to be more aware of my impact on wild animals during my course work. It

And I'm serious as a heart attack when I say that I have used what I have learned about +R training for my dog on other people, specifically those who were under my supervision. I know others will say I have confused dogs for humans but I haven't. And I accomplished the impossible by rewarding my crew to get there. The only person I had to out-pee was a guy who has tried to take over every project he is on and no one had back him down from that in a while. But I bark louder and pee higher. And I did it all with what is rewarding to humans. Except for the one guy. And I barked, literally and loudly, and then, quietly, I said, "This is my fire hydrant." That seemed to work. And afterward, I could be the nice "pushover" us +R people are supposed to be.

But I have learned to appreciate your vantage point, Corvus because even though you and I may have different requirements or needs our pet relationships, I can see the motivation in your method, or why you do or don't do whatever you are or are not doing. The value would be insight into how dogs communicate, even across species, what their social behavior actually is. In fact, in the last, it wouldn't hurt my feelings at all if you could write a paper on that is free of the domination paradigm. I know others have done so but sometimes, a fresh perspective helps.

Hi

 I do not support him. I think that his methods undersell dogs and humans and that he sells his methods in a particually evasive way. He preys on desperate people and gives them magic bullets. shame about the long term effects.

If he did the same stuff on human beings, he would be exposed as a quack and probably do a jail term as he hasn't done the trials and science that adequately explain his methods

He has particually obnoxious list habits, and gives a poor account of Australia in one of our flagship web sites.As in life, when someone is that defininte and that much of a "blow hard", you have to get suspicous. If you asked me what dorve a dog for instance, I would stand there and give an answer that started with "that depends", and i would go on for hours. One of the lessons that is valid about a bahvourist apporach is that analysing behaviour i quantifiable, analysing motivation or reason is supposition and difficult. Only the truely ignorant know for sure . Not that I don't mind  a bit of suppositon......

I don't really know of many true success stories of his if you don't like stories about dogs that look as if they have had their spirits crushed.

. It is pretty woeful when you dig up a CCD pass on a web site. For instance I taught more than a handful of people to get CCD last couple of years, the difference was the dogs and people had a hell of a lot of fun and I sure as hell don't get paid for it. Oh I didn't list it on my web site either.

 My dogs are :

Tch Cadbury CDX ( a Lab in the last days of his life, 15 tomorrow). one of the fastest strongest trackers I have ever seen. Friendly, proud Chocolate Lab

Tch Nascere Bella Nera CD nearly X  a mini poodle who is just unreal. A very beautiful addcitive dog to train my constant companion

I also handle

Obyana Sparkling White CDX a  tall, sensitive affectinate standard who is truely beautiful in many ways

Myah a Siberian Samoyed cross, who is  just so eager and sensitive and bright and very good looking .

I would rather know when I am asking more than I think I am asking, and when I've missed something. I would take pains to establish veto rights in any animal in my care. I think it's valuable information for me to know when the animal isn't prepared to do something even for a big reward. But it goes both ways and I teach them that I have veto rights as well. Everyone has their limits, and I think that dogs get that without much trouble.

bravo! yes. There are reasons why dogs don't act like robots, and we should pay attention to them instead of muttering about "dogs blowing us off" and reaching for some punishment.