Neutralisation and defining a dog's rewards

jennie_c_d

 I have noticed the control freaks with GSDs thing, and I think it's really sad.

I've never been around many GSD's and their so called "control freak owner's" but I have seen control freak dog owners in just about every venue and with just about every breed.  Some people get into dogs and training because they think it is something they can control, maybe because they can't control other aspects of their life and they think a dog will be easier than people. These people can be good trainers and they can be terrible trainers, lots of different things go into making a good trainer good and a bad trainer bad.  Being a control freak does not automatically make a bad trainer, IMO.

Jennie, when I say I like it when I get blown off people over there think I'm a weirdo. But I really do, which is why I like spitz breeds so much. When Kivi says "No, I'm not doing that" I'm forced to think about him and what he wants versus what I'm asking and the reasons I can give him to obey. As nice as it is to have a dog that behaves like an angel in every situation, it's nicer to know that he does that because you two have come to a compromise of sorts and found a way to make everyone happy than because you have deliberately set out to dominate your dog's life so he doesn't know he can enjoy things without you. I've already decided Lapphund's are too easy. I don't get blown off enough and end up taking it for granted that the 9 month old puppy will behave as I want him to. Where's the challenge and fun in a dog that is never tempted away from you?

JackieG, I didn't say that control freaks are bad trainers. I just don't really get them.  

corvus

JackieG, I didn't say that control freaks are bad trainers. I just don't really get them.  

I know what you mean!  I am a control freak in lots of things, but in dog training, as I have changed and hopefully learned over the years that it's much more pleasant for me and the dog to try to have a partnership that benefits both of us rather than a dictatorship.  I still retain my belief that dog's do benefit from clear instructions on what we require to live happily ever after in each individual home and circumstance. I just don't put as much pressure on myself or the dogs to live up to someone else's standards and this has helped me loosen the reins and enjoy my dogs so much more than I used to.

corvus

The trainer says you don't have to do it the whole life of the dog, just for the first period where they are developing values for things. He wouldn't put a time frame on it as it's different for every dog, but was suggesting just a few months.

But that is so sad!  Wathing puppies play with each other and discover the world arounf them by interacting with it is the best thing in the world!

 Yeah, I agree Golden. I don't think I could bear to do it like that. Besides which, the reason I love having animals around is because their choices fascinate me. I give them choices whenever I can because I always find it fascinating that they do decide on one thing over another. "Do you want a chicken wing for dinner, or a kangaroo shank?" I say to Kivi, and I find it SO interesting when he choses one. To my eyes, it looks like he doesn't care what he gets to eat for dinner until I give him a choice, and then you see that he would prefer one thing over another. Surely there's a lot more we can learn about our dogs if we let them show us their choices?

 I agree totally.  Out of interest, is kangaro meat comparable to chicken in Australia?

 No, not really. Kangaroo meat is dark, very lean, very rich in protein and iron. It's just about the opposite to chicken. Some people don't feed it to dogs because it is too rich. My two love it, but in moderation. If they get it too often for a while they stop eating it.

We have some interesting discussions, but when he tells me dogs don't snuggle naturally with each other unless they are cold it's hard to take anything he says seriously.

Well, Sioux and Sequoyah were just snuggling up together on the couch yesterday, and the pellet stove was freakin' roaring, so I doubt that anyone was cold.. 

spiritdogs

Well, Sioux and Sequoyah were just snuggling up together on the couch yesterday, and the pellet stove was freakin' roaring, so I doubt that anyone was cold.. 

Oh yeah? How about different species?

BTW, this was only about a month after getting Jade, the white cat sharing bed space with Shadow.

How about watching t.v. together? (same time frame) 

I don't know what he thinks snuggling means. I pointed him to a thread with a doxie and a dogue who are bestest pals. The doxie often sleeps on the dogue's back or spooned against the dogue snuggled between his front legs. This trainer said he saw no snuggling in that thread. I figured I should not waste my time arguing the point.

It was about 27 degrees C on the weekend when I got this photo of Kivi and his Samoyed friend Mist whispering secrets to each other in the shade. Given they are both northern breeds and don't know what "cold" is in this climate, something tells me they ain't trying to share warmth.

I have been very concerned about this proposal (and many others of this particular trainer). Unfortunately it is highly porbable that the non interactive nature of these interactions may really nullify any positive experience from it.

I also think that the concept of "valuing " a possible thing numerically or otherwise is highly suspect. The value a dog places on a reward is unknown often and is highly variable. It also depends highly on the past reinforcement question. It is a bit like answering a trick question in satistics what is the probability that there will be 2.98  in a continuous distribution with a mean of 2.9..

Like Corvus, I have too been told that things aren't that are and are that aren't. I was sitting in front of my computer with my older Lab playing tug with a dumb bell which i clicked and got a lovely firm non mouthing grip ( can't be done.. believes in mono drive) .

I was told that dogs actually like the shock from e collars and then when a bit of pressure was applied his system of use  was better.... that electricity only flows from point to point form an e collar (it doesn't it raidates) and so on and so on so he has no credibility. i think that you land up with a bit of  a mini cult.  I think you have to leave your brain at the door and do not speak any evil of the master guru to survive too long on the forum. It is all a bit embarassing to admit that he is an aussie too!  I have thought about setting up a web site to out these dog training snake oil salesmen, but there are so many things to do and so little time to do them.

Meanwhile, I have heavily socialised my dogs. My mini poodle is a great example. She has also been heavily permacked and is highly prey driven. She is a pehomenally reliable tracker, will go past birds, rabbitts , sheep pooh, food anything..... because she has been motivated sufficently in two ways,

1) thet tracking will bring a reward

2) that she has a chance of being rewarded with a chase of  birds etc if she finishes the track

I can also show clips of her heeling with dogs cutting across her path, with toys , and bird pooh on the ground. Again, all premacked. She is Tch at tracking and doing CDX at the moment. My older dog is Tch CDX too.

Oh and she gets to play with other dogs, gets endless affection from me, sleeps on the bed is highly friendly toward other people , and occassionally has memory disorders when asked to come back.. not for long though.

I think I know what I prefer. All that control , and as far as i can tell locally , pathetically few in the way of results.

PoodleOwned

corvus

The argument goes, if a dog is exposed to, say, other dogs but just exposed and doesn't interact, then when the dog is out of its impressionable period, other dogs have no value to it so you won't have to teach them to come away from other dogs when you need them to. So this trainer exposes pups to everything but makes sure he is the only source of good things and then the pup grows up to be very very focused and only looks to the trainer for rewards.

I don't know.  I'm confused. 

Clothier talks about how some trainers isolate the dog so that they become the ONLY important thing to the dog.   This sounds a bit different. 

When I get a puppy, I keep them on a long lead when we are out to begin with.  Reason being, I don't want them to get a chance to do something I don't want which is self rewarding.  When I call, I want to be able to enforce that.  I don't want to give the dog a chance to make a mistake.  Most of the time, the dog isn't allowed to interact with other dogs either.  I don't know if those other dogs are healthy and friendly or not and in any case, I don't go running up to every person I meet and want to interact and I want my dog to ignore most other dogs and people in a similar way.  They are not significant.  The pup certainly isn't allowed to chase cyclists, cats, or cars. 

By never being allowed to "practise" these things as a puppy, he is less inclined to do it later, as an adult.  No guarantees of course, but if I have trained the behaviours I WANT and proofed them well, then it's a reasonably safe bet.  That sounds A LOT like what that trainer is advocating - maybe not precisely the same, maybe with a slightly different philosophy behind it, but the means and the end are very similar.  Aren't they?

This is why a lot of us crate pups when we can't supervise them - it keeps the dog SAFE and it prevents unwanted habits forming, because preventing them is easier and possibly kinder in the long run than trying to "cure" them later.  Prevention is better than cure thyey say....

The main issue I see with this is that if the dog is NEVER allowed to interact with other dogs until he has outgrown his "impressionable" stage, surely that clashes with socialisation?  Isn't that more likely to create fear problems and communication problems?

Chuffy

The main issue I see with this is that if the dog is NEVER allowed to interact with other dogs until he has outgrown his "impressionable" stage, surely that clashes with socialisation?  Isn't that more likely to create fear problems and communication problems?

Yes, IMO.  I like to give my dogs choices and if I can be the choice they make because I have set them up to choose me over another desireable distraction, that is a stronger bond.  How can dogs learn the boundaries we impose on their behavior if they are never allowed to experience the world and make mistakes?  This concept is so totally beyond any rational concept of learning for any species that I am surprised he has any sort of following.  As I said earlier, this is not a new method, I heard of it more than 25 years ago with hunting dog trainers and some still cling to the belief that a good hunting dog lives in a kennel unless he is being trained or hunted.  The top Field Trial Labs in the country spend their down time hanging around the house and being a part of the family.

Chuffy

The main issue I see with this is that if the dog is NEVER allowed to interact with other dogs until he has outgrown his "impressionable" stage, surely that clashes with socialisation?  Isn't that more likely to create fear problems and communication problems?

I would agree. And how do you avoid a problem if you are wanting your dog to focus only on you and ignore these other things? Isn't it better to learn what these other things are and smell like so they can become mundane and not worth breaking focus?

And Corvus, I noticed in another post, you wrote that it pleases you or entertains you when a dog blows you off. And I see where Kivi, not being that driven to direct everyone, pretty much accepts Penny's prudence and jurisdiction. Which actually makes them compatible. I would see this neutralisation class as more work and antithetical to your approach and world vision, even how you do your job, which requires much non-interaction, which can be harder to accomplish than just stepping and assuming control. That is, defining the dog's reward, which sounds like an oxymoron to me, takes more work and "control freak"-ishness than simply observing what the dog's motivations are and either using those to direct behavior or simply letting them be. I think you have chosen well the pets that you have. For example, it's cute when Penny ignores you. It's not okay if a mouthy Akita ignores you.

corvus

When Kivi says "No, I'm not doing that" I'm forced to think about him and what he wants versus what I'm asking and the reasons I can give him to obey.

Exactly. And you can't just "correct" a Chinese Crested. Saying "no" is sometimes enough to shut her down. She's super, super soft, along with being an independant thinker. She's a real training challenge! I love it!