Neuter/spay - Why? Why not?

Yes, Ron, I've said in this thread Coke has escaped many times (or maybe it was the other thread...just goes to show that even a dog neutered before 6 months who has never marked in his life can and will run away).

I support speutering that rescues and shelters do because unlike an individual, they need to maintain credibility.  It is bad PR for a rescue when people find out a dog came from that rescue and the person lied about their intentions and used the dog for breeding.  It makes other people wonder if the rescue adopts to anyone, or doesn't adequately screen, or what.  Even if the adopter was the one that lied and misled, it still looks bad.  Also, in the county where I live, dogs need to be registered.  When you adopt a dog here, that is part of the package.  Registering an intact animal is significantly more expensive, if you are a a shelter/rescue doing it on a large scale and funded only by donations.  In far more ways than intact vs. neutered, rescues and shelters always walk a fine line of getting animals in the right homes without being too exclusive.  I am not eligible to adopt from most of the rescues around here, though many are not as black and white as they seem if you have rescued from them before.  I went through tons of paperwork and references to get one of my cats, but we adopted Coke from the same rescue and they were more concerned with Kenya meeting him than thoroughly going through our application.

If people want to have an intact pet, they can get one from a good breeder.  I'm not here to argue the cost, quality, availability, etc....ALL I'm saying is that I personally believe that many pet homes are perfectly capable of having an intact dog without him siring litters.  I'm not saying shelters and rescues should make such dogs more widely available.

GoldenAC

Since I will not be breeding Selli, does that mean she should be spayed, even though that may significantly shorten her life?

It may significantly shorten her life to not spay her--now what??

And thank you for an great answer.

 How so?  A 1% risk of pyometra compared to a more than 25% risk of Hemangiosarcoma?  And Pyo is treatable, Hemangio is a death sentance. 

ron2

Prove that it's going to shorten her life. You post as if that is a foregone conclusion, nigh unto a fact. And I don't see such. I haven't seen actual studies, merely a few people, one of them a vet, mentioning studies. The closest thing I have seen to numbers I already linked in a study that showed that aggression may not be affected by neutering if it is a modal behavior, as opposed to a hormonal behavior.

Ron, look at this study, really!

Study

Of the 55 references, 6 are from outside the US, so 49 of these studies are American.  The references are from peer review journals and two are from surveys from breed clubs.  Yes, I am comparing potential risks, I don't know if Selli will get Pyo or if she will get hemangio, but being in the Golden community and hearing about and knowing too many Goldens being lost to hemangio, I will play the odds.

Excellent synopsis, where they had some actual information. Where they didn't, I feel they err on the side of caution, as in, more data is needed. One exception, in my mind, though, as this has not yet been fully linked with a detailed pathology and does have a good, alternate explanation. Obesity in speutered dogs.  Speutering does not causally relate to weight gain and obesity's companion, diabetes. What does relate to weight gain is improper exercise and improper diet. So, an average person gets their dog neutered, he seems to settle down and they don't bother walking as much, partly because the dog is bigger and needs a longer walk. When they were 6 months old, walking around a short block wore them out. And feed them "Ole Yeller" from Albertson's Grocery Store. Those factors are not taken into account, which makes that supposed link incomplete.

I also notice that, more than once, these health risks are associated with dogs speutered before 1 year. No info on speutering of adult or matured dogs. Again, Shadow wasn't neutered until 2.5 years. He is 26 inches tall at the shoulder, a few inches over "AKC" standard for both breeds of Siberian Husky and Labrador Retriever. And he is 65 lbs, over for a Sibe, under to average for a Lab. Anyway, the article is not against spaying and neutering to avoid health risks. But it is taking exception to neutering before 1 year for most breeds. So, what if the standard was to wait until 14 months, such as in the study I previously linked, rather than at 6 months?

And we each have our own priorities. I neutered to avoid future litters. You may avoid neutering or spaying to avoid health risks associated in this compilation of studies. But Shadow wasn't neutered until he was considered an adult, after two years. In fact, my vet, who never pressured me to neuter, said I could feed him puppy formula until 2 years, which I did.

And am I correct assume that you got your Golden from a breeder? A breeder who allows you to keep an intact animal? Well, in the shelters I know of around here, you will be owning an altered pet.

I did a bad thing today. I talked to an ACO whom I know. His job, besides operating the mobile adoption event, is to go out and get strays, handle surrenders, lead the ones who ran out of time on their final walk, the "green mile," if you will. I thought about sharing his viewpoint but it's based on dealing with this every single day he's on duty and at risk of himself being injured by a dog, or traffic, or a cantankerous "owner." On top of that,even during the mobile adoption event, he has to go over to the byb's that sell in the Home Depot parking lot and caution them not to let their intact dogs run loose into the traffic right in front of them.

GoldenAC

How so?  A 1% risk of pyometra compared to a more than 25% risk of Hemangiosarcoma?  And Pyo is treatable, Hemangio is a death sentance. 

OK, I re-read this and now I really don't understand your stance.  If you are worried about all types of cancers why leave the dog intact?  I'm lost.

willowchow

you are worried about all types of cancers why leave the dog intact

Something else this makes me think of. A number of these afflictions are breed-specific. Labs are prone to Hip Dyspasia, Sibes are prone to Coronal Dystrophy (one american show-winning line was going blind by age 3), Goldens and some lines of Yellow Labs get cancer. How much of that is related to speuter and how much of it is related to breed-specific illnesses, especially with close-sanguinity breeding?

willowchow

GoldenAC

How so?  A 1% risk of pyometra compared to a more than 25% risk of Hemangiosarcoma?  And Pyo is treatable, Hemangio is a death sentance. 

OK, I re-read this and now I really don't understand your stance.  If you are worried about all types of cancers why leave the dog intact?  I'm lost.

Although I am concerned about all types of cancers, the reality of owning a Golden is that 25% of them will die from Hemangio.  Osteosarcoma is the second leading cancer in Goldens and here the age of spay/neuter seems to be important.  The study finds that the risk of Hemangio is increased 2.2 times for Spleenic Hemangio and 5 times for Cardiac Hemangio if a female is spayed as compared to an intact female.  Here is the quote from the study and the references, in this study there is no reference to age of spaying.

"In breeds where hemangiosarcoma is an important cause of death, the increased risk associated with
spay/neuter is likely one that should factor into decisions on whether or when to sterilize a dog."

24 Prymak C, McKee LJ, Goldschmidt MH, Glickman LT. Epidemiologic, clinical, pathologic, and prognostic
characteristics of splenic hemangiosarcoma and splenic hematoma in dogs: 217 cases (1985). J Am Vet
Med Assoc 1988 Sep; 193(6):706-12
25 Ware WA, Hopper, DL. Cardiac Tumors in Dogs: 1982-1995. J Vet Intern Med 1999;13:95–103.

I am not a stastics person, but if at least 25% of all Goldens die of Hemangio (which is a death sentence) and the risk of Hemangio goes up substantially when a female is spayed, than it would seem that the risk of Hemangio in a spayed female is maybe twice as much?  Even odds of Hemangio (where the average death age is 10 years).  Now the risk of mammary tumors is also 50% where 50-60% are malignant, so there is a 25-30% risk of a malignant mammary tumor.  There are two things to consider about malignant mammary tumors, the first is that even the malignant ones can be treated, the second is that like human breast cancer, early diagnosis is helpful, so Selli and I do monthly mammary exams (belly rubs to her).  Frequently you can find a small lump that is a pre-cancerous cyst.

As I have said before Hemangio is a death sentence.  It is a cancer of the blood cells that line blood vessels.  It metastasizes very aggressively and it is has few to no symptoms prior to an organ rupturing, which leads to death within hours.  By the time you know your dog has Hemangio it has spred throughout the body.  There is no treatment that will gain you more than a few months.  My Dexy presented in an unusual manner as his primary tumor was in his nose, so we knew he had Hemangio about six weeks before we sent him to the bridge and I had six weeks to endlessly and fruitlessly research the disease.

There are many Goldens who die of undiagnosed Hemangio since many owners lose their dog in the manner I described above, that is, they have no idea the dog is sick until they collapse one day, they take the dog to the vet or the dog dies at home, the vet says the dog died of a tumor on the spleen or heart, but the owner does not have the tumor biopsied since the dog is dead, so they are not entered into the data as having died of Hemangio.  Yes, this has not been scientifically verified, but I personally know of at least 10 cases of people I know where this happened.

I am more concerned about Hemangio than other types of cancer and I believe keeping her intact will lessen her risk of Hemangio.

And I think you are wise to re-consider and possibly not spay your female. And, you are above average. Trust me on that. You are not the average owner. One, your knowledge of breed and ailments specific to your breed. I know at least one Lab owner that thinks Ol Roy is just fine.

Second, you are in this, or any other dog forum, which means you seek to increase your knowledge or give others the benefit of yours.

Very unlike a lot of dog owners I know in my area.

And I fully expect that you can successfully keep an intact pet with no problems and hopefully, less health risks.

 Thanks Ron.  I agree that most owners should spay or neuter their pets as we have neutered Duffy.  I just wish all pet owners had more information about spay/neuter.  I think many people who own pets could/would be willing to do what it takes to keep an intact pet if they were informed of some of the health risks involved in spay/neuter. 

I personally chose to spay both of my dogs at 4 months of age when my vet gave the approval. One, because I didnt want to deal with the mess when the came into season. Two, Because of health reasons. Three, because even though they are indoor dogs and on leash when outside, you never know what another male dog might do if they were in season.

When I was a young kid, my sister and I were taking our dalmation for a walk when we were approached by a big dog that decided to take advantage of our dog. Yes, we had puppies.