Last Chance and I Gave Up.

Chuffy

I think it is the training itself he is responding to - NOT the clicker.  STOP training him.  Just rapid fire click-treat, several times and repeat throughout the day.  He doesn't have to do ANYTHING at all.  I suspect you're making training and/or the clicker into an issue where it need not be one and he is picking up on it.

I'm sorry but you lost me. Stop training him but still click? Isn't that training then?

At the moment, (I have moved onto one click a few times a day) he's doing fine with a click-and-treat. I'm just "charging" it now very slowly.

And if I AM making it an issue, then me rapid fire clicking is not going to help. I feel comfortable right now going slow. I'm ending it before he shuts down, and I'm leaving him with the food in his mouth looking at me for more. I think right now, I'm going to take a "Slow and steady wins the race" approach.

I'm trying to learn and see what it is that I am doing wrong, and I'm scared if I try to go too fast too soon without knowing what I'm doing wrong, it'll just take me back to square one. If that makes sense.

Chuffy is talking about about spontaneous rewarding/training when you are not in a session. What he is telling you by doing what he says (click rapid fire) will great a positive association with the clicker. You click and feed as the treat as fast you can. the faster you get this, the dog doesn't think because all he hears is the clicker and gets the treat. The more it is done, the quicker the dog will know what the clicker means... ... good things happen when the clicker sounds. You can do the same thing just by saying the dog's name and supercharging a verbal reward maker (YES!) when you don't have a clicker. So the dog thinks... .. good things happen when I hear that word (name). .. good things happen when I hear that word (verbal reward marker). After reading the thread. I think you have the right intentions but you are way too hard on yourself and expect way too much of yourself and your dog. Take your time. There is no rush. When starting out with a new dog, you are inherently teaching them how to "learn". That's the key. Don't force it down their throat. take baby steps. Look at the picture. Look how you are giving instruction to the dog. If the dog gets frustrated, you should be able to noticed their behavior change or a gesture of some sort. BACK OFF! And end something on a positive note. Always remember that! If you get frustrated.. STOP and just end it. There is no need to continue to work if you are elevated even higher. BTW, I use free-shaping a lot. :) I teach my dogs tricks and other behaviors before or during agility training. What others have said about energy, you have poodle which is a high energy dog. You really need to drain some of the energy from him before doing a session or you'll get frustrated by his lack of focus towards you.

Rene.E2008

I'm sorry but you lost me. Stop training him but still click? Isn't that training then?

 

Fistly, this is just MY perspective - what *I* would do if *I* were clicker training Diesel.  But I already said in a previous post, there are as many ways to train a dog as there are people to do it multiplied by dogs to be trained

To answer the question... Technically, you could say yes - you are using classical conditioning to make him link the sound and the yummy treat together in his mind.  But TECHNICALLY every time you are interacting with the dog you are "training" him. 

The main mistake beginners make with clicker training is too few treats, and too far between... It's really common and I thought maybe you'd fallen into that trap!

I understand what you mean about going slow, but really the speed of the click treat is far less important than your mindset IMO... If you are relaxed and jolly about it - hey this is a GREAT game - then I think the dog will buy into that and go along with it cheerfully.  The session need only be very very short, and you can pick up the trhead again later, progressing no farther than just clicking and treating.  You may be doing several click treats quickly, but your progress is still slow and careful, to avoid Diesel shutting down.  Am I making sense?

All that said - doing what you feel comfortable with is far preferable to doing something which you feel unsure about.

jdata

What others have said about energy, you have poodle which is a high energy dog. You really need to drain some of the energy from him before doing a session or you'll get frustrated by his lack of focus towards you.

I already exercise him. I always do that anyways. Whether I'm training or not.

As for the "backing off", that's why I'm only doing one click at a time. I know if I do anymore than a click or two, he starts showing signs of "stress" and he'll start shutting down.

As for the rapid click: If I click and treat rapidly, he won't take the treat. He'll shut off. Doesn't matter if he can't think, he'll shut down and not take the treat. I'm going to record it tonight and upload it and post it.

It'll probably be better off if people can see what I'm (still could be) doing wrong and how Diesel is reacting. I feel like now, people are getting confused and not understand me? I dunno. It's honestly hard to explain.

Chuffy

Rene.E2008

I'm sorry but you lost me. Stop training him but still click? Isn't that training then?

 

Fistly, this is just MY perspective - what *I* would do if *I* were clicker training Diesel.  But I already said in a previous post, there are as many ways to train a dog as there are people to do it multiplied by dogs to be trained

To answer the question... Technically, you could say yes - you are using classical conditioning to make him link the sound and the yummy treat together in his mind.  But TECHNICALLY every time you are interacting with the dog you are "training" him. 

The main mistake beginners make with clicker training is too few treats, and too far between... It's really common and I thought maybe you'd fallen into that trap!

I understand what you mean about going slow, but really the speed of the click treat is far less important than your mindset IMO... If you are relaxed and jolly about it - hey this is a GREAT game - then I think the dog will buy into that and go along with it cheerfully.  The session need only be very very short, and you can pick up the trhead again later, progressing no farther than just clicking and treating.  You may be doing several click treats quickly, but your progress is still slow and careful, to avoid Diesel shutting down.  Am I making sense?

All that said - doing what you feel comfortable with is far preferable to doing something which you feel unsure about.

Ahha! Gotcha now. I have my slow moments, haha!

Someone had once said I was "jollying" too much. Like I was being tooo happy, and that was causing him stress. And I see now about what you mean with rapid click and treat. I just don't know how not to overwhelm him with that. It's like if I ask for too much from him, he gets stressed and shuts down.

But as said in my post above this one, I'm going to record it tonight and if you feel like looking at the video, then please do. It may make what I'm trying to say, and what you think should be done, easier. Since everyone could -see- my mistakes and Diesel's reaction.

Have you tried changing clickers to a different tone? One of my JRTs is sensitive to the clicker noise. If its too loud, her eyes blink and her tail drops. When I use one of Karen Pryor clickers, the sound is softer thus her disposition does not change. If worse come to worse, go verbal... "yes" instead of the clicker. How long do you exercise him? I usually go 30-45 minutes. Or I'll put them on the treadmill, fetch, or play around with agility stuff.

Rene.E2008

It's like if I ask for too much from him, he gets stressed and shuts down.

 

Hmmm.  It's a tricky one.  Normally, when you are "charging" the clicker (the stage you are at now) you are not "asking" for anything.  The dog doesn't have to sit, or look at you or at the clicker or ANYTHING.  He just gets a tonne of freebees.  However, if he dislikes the actual sound of the clicker, then charging it will be challenging for him, because in a way, just by clicking and treating, you are "asking" him for something -- you are "asking" him to tolerate the sound, which he is struggling to do.  If this is the case, you need to muffle the clicker a lot or get something with a different tone that is less jarring for him. 

If you think perhaps you are TOO happy and jolly and he is just too sensitive, try ramping it right down.  Don't say or do ANYTHING at all, just have the clicker hidden in your pocket and a bunch of treats in the other.  Wait till Diesel is minding his own business, and just start clicking and dropping treats on the floor.  Don't even look at him.  Sit at a table and read a newspaper, or watch tv or look out the window.  Just carry on with what you are doing.  All he needs to know is, that sound is magic - it precedes GOOD STUFF.

If you are setting it up into a "session" then he may be getting the impression something is expected of him, and he is freaking out because he doesn't know what it is?  I am thinking this approach would also solve that.

Treats should be tiny; half the size of your pinky nail.  Count out maybe 10 beforehand and aim to get rid of them as quickly as possible.  Then, when he is not looking, "reload", wait for him to lose interest and mind his own business, then start again.  Make the SECOND "session" different from the first iff posible - in a different room, or when one of you is doing something different than you were before.  This way he knows it's the SOUND that is important - not that you were watching TV at the time.  This is good practise, because normally dogs don't generalise well.

This approach also has the dual purpose of making you an extremely benevolent and interesting being - the sort who dishes out freebees totally unexpectedly and therefore definitely worth keeping an eye on!  This will have positive ramifications later down the line when you need to practise stuff - - - With Distractions (cue dramatic music!!)

Several others have suggested this but I haven't seen a response from Rene, maybe I missed it.

Why don't you stop with the clicker and just use a word for the marker?  Long before clicker training became so popular we were using the word "good" as a marker. Use any word you want but "good" is easy for the human to remember.  Sit down and have some absolutely irrestible treats and a hungry dog. Offer a treat and the second he takes it say good. Feed him an entire handful like this the first time.Nothing is being trained.  If he wanders off, don't sweat it.  If he comes back for more, start again. Food=good, good=reward marker. Feed him his meals this way. Clicker training is great but it is not the only way to train a dog and just because it's popular doesn't mean you have to use it.  Many a dog has been highly trained with positive methods but without clickers.

yes, some dogs are actually scared of or averse to the click. You can use the principles of clicker training with some other marker- another noise-making device, a Yes, anything that makes a clear short sharp distinct sound.

But I'm thinking you're still accidentally "putting pressure" on the dog with your body language and that is the cause of the stress reaction the dog is giving.

jdata

Have you tried changing clickers to a different tone? One of my JRTs is sensitive to the clicker noise. If its too loud, her eyes blink and her tail drops. When I use one of Karen Pryor clickers, the sound is softer thus her disposition does not change. If worse come to worse, go verbal... "yes" instead of the clicker. How long do you exercise him? I usually go 30-45 minutes. Or I'll put them on the treadmill, fetch, or play around with agility stuff.

I just did it again tonight with the actual noise of the clicker, and Diesel's tail dropped and he took off like a rocket down stairs away from me and the noise. I had clicked it too times. The first time I knew his disposition changed, yet idiot me still clicked the second time. -smacks head-

And usually I'll run him until he starts slowing down. Which will be like 15min of straight pure running, about 3 of those a day. I hate actually taking him for walks, serves him no purpose except "mental" stimulation, which I can do when I take him to a baseball field.

Oh and I want a treadmill :(

Chuffy

Hmmm.  It's a tricky one.  Normally, when you are "charging" the clicker (the stage you are at now) you are not "asking" for anything.  The dog doesn't have to sit, or look at you or at the clicker or ANYTHING.  He just gets a tonne of freebees.  However, if he dislikes the actual sound of the clicker, then charging it will be challenging for him, because in a way, just by clicking and treating, you are "asking" him for something -- you are "asking" him to tolerate the sound, which he is struggling to do.  If this is the case, you need to muffle the clicker a lot or get something with a different tone that is less jarring for him.

I just found out last night it is the noise. He shot off like a bullet after the second time I clicked. I'm going to look into the clicker the poster above you mentioned. And if that doesn't work, my voice is going to be the "new" clicker.

Chuffy

If you think perhaps you are TOO happy and jolly and he is just too sensitive, try ramping it right down.  Don't say or do ANYTHING at all, just have the clicker hidden in your pocket and a bunch of treats in the other.  Wait till Diesel is minding his own business, and just start clicking and dropping treats on the floor.  Don't even look at him.  Sit at a table and read a newspaper, or watch tv or look out the window.  Just carry on with what you are doing.  All he needs to know is, that sound is magic - it precedes GOOD STUFF.

If you are setting it up into a "session" then he may be getting the impression something is expected of him, and he is freaking out because he doesn't know what it is?  I am thinking this approach would also solve that.

Treats should be tiny; half the size of your pinky nail.  Count out maybe 10 beforehand and aim to get rid of them as quickly as possible.  Then, when he is not looking, "reload", wait for him to lose interest and mind his own business, then start again.  Make the SECOND "session" different from the first iff posible - in a different room, or when one of you is doing something different than you were before.  This way he knows it's the SOUND that is important - not that you were watching TV at the time.  This is good practise, because normally dogs don't generalise well.

This approach also has the dual purpose of making you an extremely benevolent and interesting being - the sort who dishes out freebees totally unexpectedly and therefore definitely worth keeping an eye on!  This will have positive ramifications later down the line when you need to practise stuff - - - With Distractions (cue dramatic music!!)

Oh I love this idea. I love it, I love it, I LOVE it. It's genious.

But question: Do I just chuck the food out after each click, regardless if he eats them right away? I think I do.

Yes I love this idea. Ha. Brilliant.

JackieG

Several others have suggested this but I haven't seen a response from Rene, maybe I missed it.

Why don't you stop with the clicker and just use a word for the marker?  Long before clicker training became so popular we were using the word "good" as a marker. Use any word you want but "good" is easy for the human to remember.  Sit down and have some absolutely irrestible treats and a hungry dog. Offer a treat and the second he takes it say good. Feed him an entire handful like this the first time.Nothing is being trained.  If he wanders off, don't sweat it.  If he comes back for more, start again. Food=good, good=reward marker. Feed him his meals this way. Clicker training is great but it is not the only way to train a dog and just because it's popular doesn't mean you have to use it.  Many a dog has been highly trained with positive methods but without clickers.

I know I need to put away the clicker, but I'm so darn stubborn. I wanna try Chuffy's idea with the clicker (with it being in some more socks) at least twice. I want him to like the clicker. And I know that means I'm expecting stuff from him, but it's just the clicker, it's beautiful.

But I know I'll end up using "Yes" instead. D:

mudpuppy

yes, some dogs are actually scared of or averse to the click. You can use the principles of clicker training with some other marker- another noise-making device, a Yes, anything that makes a clear short sharp distinct sound.

But I'm thinking you're still accidentally "putting pressure" on the dog with your body language and that is the cause of the stress reaction the dog is giving.

I hope by trying Chuffy's idea, that there will be no pressure. I mean, if I'm acting like I'm doing something totally different , then my body posture couldn't really be "scarey", I'd hope.

Rene.E2008

And usually I'll run him until he starts slowing down. Which will be like 15min of straight pure running, about 3 of those a day. I hate actually taking him for walks, serves him no purpose except "mental" stimulation, which I can do when I take him to a baseball field.

Oh and I want a treadmill :(

 

Hmmm.  I am not convinced that all dogs are tired out by going at a standard pace.  It's not a natural way for them to move about.  I think some loose lead walking at a steady pace, some wandering about and sniffing COMBINED with flat out running and "tag me" games would be more tiring.  I also think that mental games help to tire a dog out hugely.  I know you haven't really got going with the clicker yet, but just filling up a cardboard box with some scrunched up newspaper and smelly treats can be a good "mental" game for a dog.  Food dispensing toys (busta cubes, kongs etc) are also stimulating.  How much does Diesel chew, per day?  He sounds rather highly strung; chewing is a great stress reliever for dogs

Rene.E2008

I just did it again tonight with the actual noise of the clicker, and Diesel's tail dropped and he took off like a rocket down stairs away from me and the noise

 

I remember someone suggesting ages ago a lid from a bottle can also be pressed to make a click noise, but it is MUCH softer than a "real" clicker.  Might have been a snapple bottle or something?  Anyhoo, the clicker itself is quite unimportant - it's just a distinct, precise marker.  Other gadgets/noises can be substituted

(PS.  I mentioned the I-Click and the Clicker Plus several posts back!)

Your statement "I want him to like the clicker" says volumes.  With dog training it's not about the trainer, it's about the dog.  Any good dog trainer will tell you that the method has to fit the dog it rarely works the other way around.  You and I may think it is ridiculous for Diesel to be afraid of a little clicker noise but to paraphrase Jean Donaldson, the dog decides what's scary.  I wish you luck and I understand being stubborn but I think you should be stubborn about learning a new way to reach Diesel and not stubborn about using the clicker.