Last Chance and I Gave Up.

Well despite your good intentions your method is a bit off, LOL!

I can only comapre that exercise to taking a young child to the park and asking him to do his homework, LOL.

You shouldnt put so much money into training a dog besides a sturdy collar and maybe a couple different length of leads.

First, try and tire the dog out a bit before training. Excess energy is only going to lead to exactly what you witnessed. A brisk walk, a run, a game of tug, anything to dispel extra energy. Some other tricks for "come" that I have found are......

First you have to convey to the dog what "come" actually means. A dog cant grasp "come" by you facing him, patting your legs and repeating a word at it.

If your dog dosnt know what "come" means put him on a long lead of 25-40 feet and let him roam about the yard or open space. After he's explored a bit give a small tug on the leash the same time you are saying "come" in a fun animated voice. In the early stages of training you wan to make it a game. If he dosnt come immedialtey start reeling him in, saying come and when he reaches you reward and get really excited so he knows he did good.

Let the leash out, let him explore and practice this at different time intervals and repeat!

 Do this for a couple fo days to really strengthen the command. "Come" is one of the hardest things to teach and re-enforce and can be extremely hard depending on the breed. Stop oracticing if you find yourself getting frusterated, if you can tell he is over practice for the day and dont ask too much at one training session. You can tell he's bored if you have to say it more then once or twice. Your ultimate goal is to only say it once. Dont teach him that "come" is ok after you've said it 15 times, LOL

After your dog learns what is expected and gets bored of this game you'll find he may slack off a bit. Or once he has this down move onto the next game.

A human facing a dog yelling "come" dosnt convey to a dog with body language what is expected. I bet you'll find if you turn heel with your back to him and take off in a run yelling "come" he'll race to you a lot faster then when you face him. Make a game out of it. When he reaches you, stop, turn to him and reward!

Make this a game with your brother. Like you mentioned before, stand at either sides of the yard but this time one of you break into a run and call teh dog to chase you. When he reaches you, reward and as soon as he is done with his treat your brotehr should break into a run in the opposite direction and do the same as you did. This will also tire him out which is always good, LOL!

Lastly, I know you have good intentions but this poor dog MUST be confused. You've tried clickers, whistles, ceasr methods, stuff you've read in books and stuff on tv. Slow down, stick with the basics for now and work on your bond with the dog. He is insecure because he's had a lot of methods thrown his way and all he senses is frusteration from you.

Dogs dont give up on us......they make think we are a little crazy at times but they wont give up on us. Each day is a new day to them so take advantage of that fact!

And as mentioned, he was fine outside earlier having a ball. I already drained his energy as much as I could (and have done that in the past when training) and he knows what "come" is too. I can whistle and he'll come, or snap my fingers or say it. I was just adding the whistle first to get him to come to me for more training purposes.

There couldn't have been any distractions outside because he was looking at me at first and focusing on the chicken and then he stopped and took off again. That's our problem, he shuts down when it comes to training.

That's why I'm making such a big deal out of it. I know how to properly set a dog up for training and what to do, but I don't know how to handle a dog of Diesel's mentality. I taught my aunt's dog come that way by patting my legs and adding the word "come" and clicking when he came and treating (although we did it inside the house with no distractions at all).

Someone a while ago said this, " My experience with poodles and other breeds, waifs, pups, seniors who've never had any social life, is that they do enjoy a change of scenery and to experience the world- (in small measured doses- if pup is not used to action adventures. *G* I'd change the environment in which you are training the dog- same old living room, same old behaviors. He is bored, or is afraid that these lessons shall not end. *G* I'd try a small squeak toy instead of a clicker for a while. Pre-scent it with essence of gerbil. *G* I'd try white meat of chicken - diced and cubed as treats/ rewards. I'd enlist the help of friends - (prezooming diesel is utd on vax etc) at a park. Have a friend come up to Diesel. You put him in a sit or a down etc. Friend asks Diesel to "shake" or whatever offering paw command. So forth. Short lead, short romps, short training sessions- varied."

Well, I tried that. I had my friend do it thinking he was scared of me, he reacted the same way to her as to me.

I'm hoping someone on here has a dog very similar to Diesel and knows of a very good way, but everything I keep hearing is the same stuff that I've been trying. -facepalm-

I think I'm just going to be wasting everyone's time on this thread, ha. Trust me, I've tried everything that I've heard to the fullest extent and after 2.5 years I doubt I'll get it.

He's perfectly healthy, he's smart (I've seen it before our problems arose), he loves food and chicken, but when it comes to commands, he gets scared. And like mentioned on my introduction post, it's like he isn't confident in what he does. He KNOWS sit 100%, he's known it for one and half years. And he knows come. When I had my gerbils, boy did he come and sit. For some reason he got happy and confident with the gerbils, like he was showing off. But it wasn't safe after a while because he tried eating one of the gerbils instead of his normal sniffing them...

Now I was just rambling, ha. Would a video help you see if I'm doing something wrong? Like if my body isn't right (because I can't tell if my posture is changing to a frigthening pose) or if my voice isn't soft enough..

I don't have a problem with him when it comes to undirected training (if that makes sense). Like when we are doing training "Sessions" that's when the problem arises. But for instance, I taught him "get up" (off my lap) by putting him on my lap, and pushing him off saying "Get Up" and not rewarding him or anything. It wasn't intentional training but he caught on to it. And I've made his "Sit" 100% by using NILIF. So, that wasn't a "session" either, because I used his food, going potty, getting on the bed, etc as a reward. I've tried using NILIF for his downs but that never worked because I didn't keep going with the training after the problem arose, and I only needed sit.

And just to say what I've done in preperation for training at different times to experiment: I've ran him tired, didn't feed him (I tried that again today and running him tired), I've let him sleep first, waited after him eating, after a bath, after a walk, after a drive somewhere.

Methods I've used (over a 2 yr period): Clicker (at first), then when he got scared I went to luring with a marker word "YES", then old school style by forcing him into a pose and treating, no treats and force into a pose, demanding, back to clicker, then to nothing.

And I'm not using the whistle as a clicker. I was trying to get it to be taken for another way of saying "come" (he knows when I whistle to come, when I snap my fingers or when I say his name or "come";). But like an idiot I was, I tried it in a training "session" and not how I first taught him to come.

I think I should just stay at basics. Maybe one time a day? Is that a good start. And that's not something I've done yet, you know, one trick a day (like a one second long session ha). I'd like to train him using my hands as someone mentioned that on my intro post. Maybe I'll train him with hands using the NILIF and just adding the hand movement when I tell him to sit for his stuff.

Rene.E2008

I don't have a problem with him when it comes to undirected training

I think you have your answer in the above statement.  For some reason he is feeling stressed and anxious during your "formal" sessions. Maybe you are transmitting your stress/tension/expectations. Dogs are highly aware of our feelings, even when we think we are masking them.  Just lighten up and lower your expectations of him and of yourself and maybe that will help you both make some progress.

 I agree. It sounds like you're dealing with a pretty sensitive, "soft" dog. He's probably feeding off of your anxiety (with scaring him with the clicker and trying a bunch of methods you're unsure of).

I have a sensitive, soft Chinese Crested. She tolerates NO force. Before I taught her to stand for her nail trims, I held her for it. She'd scream the entire time. The first time I  shaved her face, she screamed like a banshee. This is when I discovered that she just can't take it. I had to approach her differently, or she was going to HATE grooming, and being on a table. She's a conformation puppy, so that would be REALLY bad.

What I did was just reinforce what I wanted (I don't use a clicker, at all), and ignore what I didn't. We have come SO far. I got her at 3 1/2 months. She's 9 months, now, and she's amazing. She does conformation, she demos for basic obedience, and she's awesome about being groomed. She rests her face on my hand, and closes her eyes, while I shave her face. She's totally relaxed, about it. She stands on the table, while I do her nails. She lets total strangers handle her mouth, without breaking her "stand". 

Just find something (it sounds like chicken works!) that motivates him, and motivate him. Take very tiny baby steps. Stop before he's bored or nervous about it. Very, very short sessions.

Deisel, sit! GOOD SIT! Now, I'm putting this chicken up for later, and you'll have to work for it, buddy! 

Wait five minutes, then ask him to sit again. More chicken. Maybe throw in a down. Keep it all lighthearted, and if you get even slightly frustrated or nervous, STOP. If he shows any signs of stress, STOP. Ideally, you should stop before that happens, though.

JackieG

I think you have your answer in the above statement.  For some reason he is feeling stressed and anxious during your "formal" sessions. Maybe you are transmitting your stress/tension/expectations. Dogs are highly aware of our feelings, even when we think we are masking them.  Just lighten up and lower your expectations of him and of yourself and maybe that will help you both make some progress.

And thanks so much :D I'll try that tomorrow. I always have a habit of keep "going" and not stopping.

That's the first time someone said that too, ha, usually I get the same responses everywhere, so it's nice to see a new change.

What part of VA do you reside? If you bring Diesel over to MD, I'll be happy to spend a day with him and maybe a different point of view may shed some light on the situation. Feel free to email me, Samwu1@yahoo.com

RaceProfessor

What part of VA do you reside? If you bring Diesel over to MD, I'll be happy to spend a day with him and maybe a different point of view may shed some light on the situation. Feel free to email me, Samwu1@yahoo.com

Rene.E2008

Diesel is perfect for my grooming projects and I enjoy grooming him and saving me money :D But for my training, goodness no.

It sounds like Diesel was purchased with a job and expectation to live up to.  You expected him to be a certain way, to think, respond, and act in a certain way.  However one of the greatest marks of a dog trainer, is to be able to look at a dog and recognize the individual within and then tailor the training to work with that dogs needs.

My advice would be to start looking immediatly for a trainer who uses positive methods and is also a dog behaviorist to come and help you, help your dog.  I can't stress how important it is to make sure the trainer is going to use positive gentle methods.  Make sure to interview them extensivly and question their experience with dogs that shut down. 

At this point, you are way in over your head, and you both are stressed, confused, and frustrated.  A knowledgable trainer will be able to start you both on the path to recovery.  You'll also learn far more experiencing training firsthand than trying to read books and bumbling on every method and opinion out there on how it should be done. 

If the thought about working with unstable dogs repels you, than you might want to consider a different profession.  People rarely bring in perfect, stable dogs to dog trainers.  It is the poorly socialized, overzealous, reactive, dogs and their confused, inexperienced owners that often come bumbling in desperate for help and answers.  Though they might be the hardest to instruct, they are also the ones who need it the most.

If you want to believe in Karma, than I think Karma has sent you a very big gift in a dog that can teach you the true heart in becoming a dog trainer.

Rene.E2008

I don't have a problem with him when it comes to undirected training (if that makes sense). Like when we are doing training "Sessions" that's when the problem arises. But for instance, I taught him "get up" (off my lap) by putting him on my lap, and pushing him off saying "Get Up" and not rewarding him or anything. It wasn't intentional training but he caught on to it. And I've made his "Sit" 100% by using NILIF. So, that wasn't a "session" either, because I used his food, going potty, getting on the bed, etc as a reward. I've tried using NILIF for his downs but that never worked because I didn't keep going with the training after the problem arose, and I only needed sit.

I really love training as you go. It keeps it casual and often I find it really sticks with them and becomes a habit. I found with Kivi Tarro that even just saying the same thing every time he did something did a good deal to teach him what it meant and open the door for him to understand me. It took a while and a bit of patience, but I love that I can walk him on a 15 foot leash and when I say "hold up" he slows or stops, when I say "come on" he lifts his head and trots after me, when I say "this side" he passes an obstacle on my side of it, and when I say "this way", he heads towards my voice. It makes walks quite relaxing and he listens to me without really knowing he's listening to me.

I think that the most important thing with any training is to build a relationship with your animal. With an animal like yours, it's imperative that they trust you. If I were you, I would really concentrate on just being with Diesel for a while. Spend time with him and talk to him a lot and gently gently ease him back into the training sessions he gets so anxious about. And relax. He's not impossible. You just have to loosen up and trust him as well.