Do some dogs hate spitz breeds because of physical appearance?

    • Gold Top Dog

    Do some dogs hate spitz breeds because of physical appearance?

    I just got into this discussion following someone's young akita fending off a staffy that abruptly decided to attack her. The akita is a pretty laid back individual and historically very tolerant, although she's still under a year old. She ended up with some nasty puncture wounds but the staffy came off much better with just a couple of marks where the akita had put her teeth. I think the staffy was lucky the akita didn't react like akitas often do by slashing it to pieces.

    Anyway, people started cheerfully saying that many dogs pick fights with spitz breeds because of the ears, high tail carriage, and thick fur making them look dominant even when they were just minding their own business. I have heard this before, but since getting a Finnish Lapphund, I don't really buy it. My lappie looks very similar to a husky or malamute, but he approaches dogs with his head down, eyes away, tail down (somewhat) and his ears flat. Dogs generally don't feel threatened by him. He is a *** cat. I really think that dogs are a good deal better at reading another dog than to attack them on the basis of them superficially looking a little dominant. If I can tell the difference between a spitz breed minding its own business and a spitz breed strutting his stuff, then I expect a dog can probably handle it as well.

    I have this theory that it's not the spitz look that brings out the worst in some dogs, but the way some of them like akitas, huskies and mals tend to be brimming with confidence and might even swagger a bit. A confident, self-contained akita is a world apart from a cuddly wuss of a lapphund, despite any similarities in appearance. We have only seen one dog lunge at Kivi for something other than sitting on their tennis ball or trying to suck on their ears and that was a dog that had been attacked by a mal that ran up to her and bit her back and the owners explained she didn't like anything that looked like a mal anymore.

    My theory is a little half-formed because I've never actually met a dog that lunges at every spitz breed dog that walks past (even the dog that lunged at Kivi only did it when he ignored her first few warnings), but my feeling is that a) it's not normal and b) the dogs that do it are possibly a little crap at reading dogs in the first place because there's no way in hell Penny would ever start something with a dog that sure of itself. I wonder if they are the kind of dogs that are used to getting what they want by aggressing and when they see a dog that's got the goods to put a spanner in the works for them they feel intimidated and react by doing what they always do, which is coming in ferociously and with little warning.

    What does everyone think?
     

    • Gold Top Dog

    It's both. Akitas set off other dogs...that is a fact. I have no experience with other issues. They do send out natural dominant vibes because of the forward set ears...up on toes stance...serious slowish way of moving...habit of intense staring...upright, over the back tail carriage, etc.

    I can only speak for one breed on this...no experience with others. Rottweilers tend to have confidence, but obviously the tail and ear issue is different,...so maybe a Rott owner can chime in.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I have wondered the same myself. Shadow often carries his tail up, usually curled over his back and slightly to the right. He has small, pointed ears that can stand up. I sometimes wondered if other dogs read that as presumptuous of him. Then they key off that, then he could key off their anxiety. Not all dogs that meet him think that. Just some.

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    Anyway, people started cheerfully saying that many dogs pick fights with spitz breeds because of the ears, high tail carriage, and thick fur making them look dominant even when they were just minding their own business.

    I think it is really hard for some dogs and people to read the breeds with the type of look described.

    However, my experiences with other dogs and Willow is that of all the dogs we've encountered most of them try really hard to be friends even when she is clearly being aggressive.  And, even the few that got aggressive, it wasn't picking a fight it was more like fighting back or giving the attitude back to her. 

    People on the other hand, exact opposite.  She could be acting sweet as can be and people are nervous and afraid of her. 

    It makes it even worse that she's dark too.

    Lori

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    Dunno about spitz types but Kenya (GSD) often is rubbed the wrong way by Border Collies.  The ones we know tend to stare at her and do that stalking approach with their ears alert and head low and forward.

    I like GSDs b/c they (to me) are easy to read.  Full tails that naturally are carried horizontal or lower, but can go up or even curl over, so there's signals with the tail.  The ears are erect, but so large that usually they are not carried up and forward.  They can twist sideways (for my dogs that is relaxed) or back flat (submissive), our flat out to the side (aggression or defense drive).  They really aren't usually up and straight forward unless the dog is alert to something.  For head shots and good stacked picks we have to call the dog or toss a toy to get the ears in that position.

    • Gold Top Dog

     There's a BC cross that frequents the dog park we go to and every time he sees a dog, he goes low and stalks them. Sometimes he hides behind something and then he'll spring out and charge at the hapless dog and then do playful zoomies. It's really bizarre, and the first couple of times Kivi found it all a bit scary, but then he caught on and now every time he sees the dog he waits patiently for the stalk and the charge and then they go off and do zoomies together.

    • Gold Top Dog

    corvus
    There's a BC cross that frequents the dog park we go to and every time he sees a dog, he goes low and stalks them

    It sounds like he's herding. Some herd by position, some herd by eye.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

     I think certain breeds can have a higher tendancy to set off dogs do to their appearance.  I can't speak for Akita's but I've noticed that schnauzers, especially those with cropped ears can set other dogs on edge.  They have a very forward confident build to their bodies.  Mix in the cropped alert ears, docked tail, beard masking their muzzle and long eyelashses both hiding and intensifing their stare, and I think it can make them harder for dogs to properly messure their true intent.  Of course, part of it might be the confidence and terrier personality to match.

    I also do think it is possible for dogs based on experience and other factors to develope a distrust, or breed specific aggression. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    Krissim Klaw
    I also do think it is possible for dogs based on experience and other factors to develope a distrust, or breed specific aggression. 

     

    I agree with this statement.  I have also seen it go the other way and I'm sure you all have had similar experiences.  Dogs that have grown up around a certain breed or have made friends with a certain breed or look tend to approach those dogs even when they are strangers with an expectation of friendliness. My JRT who has been around a lot of black Labs will approach any large black dog assuming they are friends. He approaches dogs that have a body type that he is not familiar with, much more cautiously (cautious is a relative term with him lol).

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    rwbeagles

    It's both. Akitas set off other dogs...that is a fact. I have no experience with other issues. They do send out natural dominant vibes because of the forward set ears...up on toes stance...serious slowish way of moving...habit of intense staring...upright, over the back tail carriage, etc.

     

    I think you hit the nail on the head. Akitas and pits have many of the same traits -- broad, strong posture, head up, eye contact, straight on approach. ect. So two dogs, with naturally dominant postures/temperaments -- a fight isn't too hard to get to. In fact, it's probably related to how both breeds were selectively breed to be fighting dogs in the first place. (***Shudders at the thought***)

    Rosco hates Nordic breeds. He would flat out start a fight if he ever got the opportunity. I assume it must be something about the body language, but since I can't ask him, I just generalize and know to get him focused on me and working if there's a Nordic breed around.

    • Gold Top Dog

    I don't know a thing about Akitas or other spitz-type breeds (not many in our area), but I have noticed a difference in the way my Aussie relates to certain breeds. He typically LOVES every dog he sees, but absolutely can't stand Boxers. Even in puppy school (around 5-6 months of age), he would cheerfully greet most of the other puppies, but would go ballistic when a Boxer walked in. Similarly he gets very agitated when he sees the one across the street in the neighbor's yard. He has never had any bad experiences with them & displayed this behavior at a fairly young age, so I always assumed it was something about the sharply cropped ears? Strangely enough, naturally upright ears (BC, GSD, etc) don't bother him at all, though.

    • Gold Top Dog

    My Chow/Golden carries her tail up over the body, but she's always looking for play and other dogs very much like her.

    The Malinois also dislikes Boxers.

    • Gold Top Dog

     See, your spitzy-looking dog is friendly and my spitz dog is friendly and it seems to me that dogs generally get that. But there's no way Kivi looks confident when he approaches another dog, even if his tail is up and his fur makes him look big and intimidating, and even if his ears are forward for once rather than pinned. He just doesn't look like a dog to worry about. He looks like a cuddly teddy bear that loves everyone.

    • Gold Top Dog

     I also do think it is possible for dogs based on experience and other factors to develope a distrust, or breed specific aggression.

     Absolutely. Ginny would tear every Golden Retriever she saw to pieces if she could, and she is frightened of German Shepherds and Border Collies (but not Rough Collies or Aussies....very strange)

    But on the other hand of the spectrum she adores pitties as an almost 100% infallible rule, even the pushy/goofy/overly playful ones.

     

    • Gold Top Dog
    Those BCs are herding. When my agility instructor lets her loose in the building one will get in the stalking position and use their eyes and posture towards another dog while the other ones follows. They seem to do it to corgis after class. Now if there is a terrier in the building, the BCs will run and hide as they are terrified of terriers because they get bullied at home one.

    Now since my Jacks were attack by a golden retrievers, they will not hesitate to go after one. Especially Scout. I don't trust a GSD they are too unpredictable IMHO although I helped a stressful owner get his GSD that ran away on the highway. I still don't trust based on my experiences with them in classes.