damages adding up

  So if they know who's the leader, can you walk then off leash in the street? do you have control on the walks while they are on the leash?

 
No I couldn't walk them off leash in the street.  It's against the law.
 
Do I have control?  Yep, sure do.  Not as good of control as Glenda has of her GSDs though. 

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

No I couldn't walk them off leash in the street.  It's against the law.

Do I have control?  Yep, sure do.  Not as good of control as Glenda has of her GSDs though. 

 
Ok let me refrain that, can you walk your dogs off leash anywhere else?
 
Now you say that you have control but not as good as others, so do you or you dont? you are supposse to be the leader right? why you cant have as good control?

Thank you Ed.  I'm not sure why I'm the "football" today.......
 
I will not walk my dogs off lead in town either.  It is against the law and I have no desire to mix it up with either the police or the ACO. Just because I CAN doesn't mean that I will.  And by can, I mean my dogs are obedient enough to obey whatever I ask of them.  On lead we have absolutely no issues, no pulling, no fussing, nothing.  However, we take lovely, hours long walks in the woods and fields surrounding our home.  No lead required.  And they not only sit and wait at the door, they sit and wait at the gate outside in the yard before being allowed to pass through it.  And yep, I usually send them ahead of me.  I'd actually rather THEY go first to make enough ground shaking racket to scare off the snakes!  And, I find it less cumbersome to pull the inside door shut, and push the outside door shut as well if I don't have dogs coming through it.
 
espenser, you have not seen me with my dogs so you have no idea what my level of control is or is not.  For the record, MY dogs don't get on the bed without an invitation.  Nor do they get on any piece of furniture without permission.  If I happen to sleep someplace other than my bed, it's simply because I sat down in my recliner and fell asleep there.  You sir, are assuming facts not in evidence and indicting me on some sort of flim flam evidence, soley because I do not agree with you.

I open the door, tell the dogs to go on out, wait until they've all gone out, follow them, and shut the door behind us. If I went out first, who would shut the door?
 
So you're telling me that instead of spending hours training reliable recalls, working on leash manners, and teaching a good off-leash heel, I could have gotten all of these behaviors in seconds just by making the dogs go out the door after I do? of course the house would get pretty cold and full of bugs with the door left open all the time.

espenser, perhaps because I have been HOME with my dogs and worked hours each day with them I might have a bit better control.  That does not make Ed any less of a leader than I or anyone else, just a working person.  Which I am as well now, but my dogs have not "forgotten" their lessons.  I must be doing something right.

ORIGINAL: espencer

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

No I couldn't walk them off leash in the street.  It's against the law.

Do I have control?  Yep, sure do.  Not as good of control as Glenda has of her GSDs though. 

Ok let me refrain that, can you walk your dogs off leash anywhere else?

Now you say that you have control but not as good as others, so do you or you dont? you are supposse to be the leader right? why you cant have as good control?

We have some off leash areas (beaches, state parks) and I certainly can walk my dogs with or without their leashes.  I do not believe that it matters if my dogs walk in front, behind or next to me.  What matters is whether they do as I ask when I ask.  So, I guess the answer to your question is that they are under control, off leash or on, but I don't agree that they need to be in a certain position constantly to regard me as their leader.

ORIGINAL: mudpuppy

I open the door, tell the dogs to go on out, wait until they've all gone out, follow them, and shut the door behind us. If I went out first, who would shut the door?

So you're telling me that instead of spending hours training reliable recalls, working on leash manners, and teaching a good off-leash heel, I could have gotten all of these behaviors in seconds just by making the dogs go out the door after I do? of course the house would get pretty cold and full of bugs with the door left open all the time.

 
Hahaha bugs, i get it [], yeah i guess is a pain to move to one side, stretch your arm and close the door, you are right
 
And maybe yes, it was going to be easier if you did that from the beginning, not in seconds but easier

Now you say that you have control but not as good as others, so do you or you dont? you are supposse to be the leader right? why you cant have as good control?

 
First off, my particular breed has about 6,000 years of independent thinking and behavior bred into it.  Pharaoh Hounds are not working dogs, nor sporting dogs.  They are bred to be particularly efficient killers of rabbits and other small game.  They do not readily take instruction, and the fact that mine actually do obey me is surprising to everyone else that has dogs of this breed.  My dogs will not follow a person that asserts leadership by force, coersion or domination.  They would rather shut down.
 
Do I have control of them, let me retract my previous answer.  No, I don't.  They allow themselves the luxury of NOT having to be the leaders.  They trust me enough to follow me and deign to follow my requests.  They still have control of their desires and their movements but they ALLOW me to impose my will upon them.
 
Had I spent as much time developing the trust and bonds with a working dog-I would have a dog that probably wouldn't leave my side without me issuing a command.  I am a free spirit so I wanted dogs with that same attitude.  I got a challenge that most people would give right back to the breeder.
 
Mock me if you wish.  But until you know the challenge of ANY hound, let alone a sighthound, your mocking is heedless and trivial. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

No I couldn't walk them off leash in the street. It's against the law.

Do I have control? Yep, sure do. Not as good of control as Glenda has of her GSDs though.



Ok let me refrain that, can you walk your dogs off leash anywhere else?

Now you say that you have control but not as good as others, so do you or you dont? you are supposse to be the leader right? why you cant have as good control?

I have a dog who sleeps in my bed, sits in my lap, and runs out the door/gate ahead of me. She is an independent minded breed, and was not bred to work closely with humans.

I have walked her off lead in public, on multiple occasions, once without realizing that she was totally detached (she'd chewed her harness in the car). She maintains her heel, if I ask, and stays nearby, no matter what. She obeys at least 99% of the time. I can't think of a time that she hasn't obeyed. She has recall that's so good, she'll come off of a running rabbit (and she's caught many rabbits, in her three years, so she KNOWS what the reward for chasing them is). I have a hard time believing that she could possibly be better if I started being so silly as to make her wait for me to go through the door first.

What does letting your dogs out the doors first and walking off leash have to do with each other anyway?
 
When my Swissy was an adolescent I followed the NILIF program to the "T" and now that he is trained I don't care anymore about some of it, like not letting him out doors first.  BUT, if I want him to sit and wait, he does!!  The truth is that its to difficult for me to go out first and make room for my 150 ponder to squeeze by so I can go back in and close the door AND its not necessary. 
 
Sometimes some people get too hung up on things you think are absolutes.  Why you think they are absolutes is mystifying to me – even NILIF would work fine if you decided to leave that part out. 
 
And by the way, although I have never proof tested it I believe I could walk my dog off lead almost anywhere and he would be pretty good.  If not, the one thing he does have is a reliable recall to fall back on.
 
How about you and your dog?  You do have a dog, yes?
 

Swissy.....[sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif][sm=clapping%20hands%20smiley.gif]

ORIGINAL: Xerxes

First off, my particular breed has about 6,000 years of independent thinking and behavior bred into it.  Pharaoh Hounds are not working dogs, nor sporting dogs.  They are bred to be particularly efficient killers of rabbits and other small game.  They do not readily take instruction, and the fact that mine actually do obey me is surprising to everyone else that has dogs of this breed.  My dogs will not follow a person that asserts leadership by force, coersion or domination.  They would rather shut down.

Do I have control of them, let me retract my previous answer.  No, I don't.  They allow themselves the luxury of NOT having to be the leaders.  They trust me enough to follow me and deign to follow my requests.  They still have control of their desires and their movements but they ALLOW me to impose my will upon them.

Had I spent as much time developing the trust and bonds with a working dog-I would have a dog that probably wouldn't leave my side without me issuing a command.  I am a free spirit so I wanted dogs with that same attitude.  I got a challenge that most people would give right back to the breeder.

Mock me if you wish.  But until you know the challenge of ANY hound, let alone a sighthound, your mocking is heedless and trivial. 

 
Well since i havent make fun of you (or will) then that last sentence is non-sense, i think you rely way much about "blaming" the breed, i agree that you have to have in mind what breed your dog is but i feel that you almost use it as an excuse, but hey is just me
 
I remember that you stated before that they are really prey drive, do you do some kind of excersice to avoid showing it during the walks and have more control over them? and by control i do not mean making them act like robots, i dont think anybody here wants a dog like that
 
Do they "ALLOW you to impose your will upon them" at the moment they see a small animal? or is the gene of the breed that does not let you?
 
Dont get me wrong and i dont want to be rude but you say one thing right now and i have read other when you post in other threads, one day you have control but another you dont, when i ask you why you dont you take it on the breed
 
If your idea of control is to obey commands but not listening when they see a rabbit because thats just the way the breed is then you are in control []

Folks, could I offer a suggestion here?  We are being baited and I strongly suggest that before this escalates into WWIII we should just ignore the baiting.

I've stated my position.  I have the well behaved dogs to back up that position.  I need'nt say more.

ORIGINAL: luvmyswissy

How about you and your dog?  You do have a dog, yes?

Yes i do, thanks for asking []

Well if you guys have a perfect dog even when they walk out first congrats,  somebody gave the advice to go out first and you guys treated that advice like a life or death situation, if is a pain for you to do it then dont, maybe is not a pain for someone else, whats the worst that can happen? 

Ya'll??  Please.