Martingale Collar

Chuffy

 I syand by what I said before.... I think the thing that will work best with him is a) finding some equipment taht will allow you not to be dragged when he gets it in his head to go somewhere and b) making THE WALK itself the reward for walking nicely.  It will take TIME, sure, but I think it will work.  I feel for you I really do because its HARD when you think your going 1 pace forward and 2 back.... but you are nOT alone and Gibby is NOT doing badly.  He is normal and he WILL get there.  The conflicting advice doesn't help I know, but what you have to do is decide on your course of actiona and Stick to it!!!!  Inconsistency will get him nowhere.  Just decide, and run with it and don't switch the moment he gets a set back.

I honestly think half the problem is your own insecurity - you feel at the mercy of Gibby and his strength and you are unsure of what you are doing.  Have some faith in yourself!  You are a GOOD dog owner.  Gibby might be testing you but I am confident it's nothing you can't handle.

Thank you Chuffy. Your right...the two steps forward and one back is truely frustrating. And honestly, not used to it. 

Your also right about the conflicting advise...to begin with...I have my own set of thoughts on how to teach a dog,,,,trying to get past that. Then to take my dog to a class that I have paid for.....and not seeming to get anywhere....is hard.  Other people saying "find another trainer!"   Its all my fault...I'm coming for help...people are helping me, and I appreciate it a lot.

Maybe your right about my own insecurity...but I feel mad more than insecure. But then...your right about the fact that when you are holding the other end of the leash of this strong guy....its intimidating, to say the least.  I see Gibby getting "better and better" each day about a lot of things... not that this walking thing is one of them.   I told my DH...I feel that if I walked him without a leash.. he would be better.   But yet... thats probably not true either. But yesterday when the garbage man came.... I had him out without a leash...he went to walk by the guy and stopped dead and looked at me.... I told him "okay Gib, you can go see him!" He walked over to him and sat down to be petted. I swear...if he had been on a leash he would have pulled me all the way there and then jumped on him!

I do honestly believe that he is going to be an excellent dog one day. Its just  going to take a while. He is still a baby.

 Yeah, you shoulda got one of these

http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/87058.aspx

Chuffy

 Yeah, you shoulda got one of these

http://forum.dog.com/forums/t/87058.aspx

OH my gosh Chuffy....how cute!

Gee....it actually wouldn't matter how one of those little guys walk on a leash....lol!

oh yeah callie, making a "clinky" noise isn't a "correction"; at best it's a distraction that now allows you to apply redirection. A real collar correction- you put choker on, or safer, prongs (prongs are actually martingales with pinch-action links added, by the way), and when the puppy does something you don't like, such as refuse to obey a command, you give a very hard jerk and release to remind the dog to not do that again in future. I've heard different theories about the clinking of the chain- most require you to first teach the dog that a clinking noise predicts pain, so it becomes a "conditioned punisher". This theory I believe because I've met dogs put straight into chain attachment martingale without ever being "corrected" and they really don't seem to pay much attention to the chain clinking.

Anyway, if for some reason you decide to use collar corrections with your dog, do it right. It's much more cruel to nag nag nag with low-level discomfort 500 times tugging on a martingale or flat-buckle collar than to apply one or two sharp effective corrections on a prong that get the job done.

I usually train off-leash so the concept of "training collar" is what I was taught as a teenager- a collar designed to inflict painful punishments during training.

Dyan, if you were in one of my classes here's the progression we use for training tools: flat collar or martingale, front lead harness (not a sporn), head halter, prong.  In almost a year of classes and over 100 students, only *one* dog has had to use a prong and 3 have been on head halters. 

The single dog on a prong used it for a few reasons: the dog couldn't tolerate a harness or halter (did salmon flips and was overdistracted just by the sensation - this was the main issue and in the end the prong was less aversive than the other tools) and she was a very strong and distractable dog.  The prong was used only in high distraction settings (class and on walks in new locations) for 3 weeks to help get her under control without overly frustrating the owner before her owner was able to work up to a solid attention cue and loose leash walking skills.  By the end of class she was a new dog!

I teach LLW off leash if possible to avoid some of the frustration I "hear" in your posts; if you train off lead, the dog can't pull you and I do think that pulling often is triggered just by putting a lead on.  If you'd like some more detail about what I have students do with their tough pullers, let me know.  I know it's one more thing to think about but it sounds like you need a good training technique, not just another tool that serves as a stop gap but doesn't fix the issue.  If I were you, I'd also contact Bugsy's mom since she has an equally large dog who she's been working with on LLW hardcore for a while.

stardog85

I teach LLW off leash if possible to avoid some of the frustration I "hear" in your posts; if you train off lead, the dog can't pull you and I do think that pulling often is triggered just by putting a lead on.  If

Thank you,,I did PM you!

I have NO DOUBT that this is true.  I might have told the story about how last week when the garbage man came we were outside without a leash,,,playing with a ball.  Normally Gibby would charge and jump on the guy,,,since he's "Gods gift to life!"  When the kid got in front of our house...Gibby started to walk by him..and I said "thats okay Gibby, you can meet him!"  He took a few steps and stopped and looked at me as if to say "is it okay mom?"  I again told him its okay and he WALKED to the kid and sat down to get petted.  Not charge, not jump...sat down. I believe it was because he was not leashed.

BUT I dont' think I understand how you train a dog to walk on a leash without a leash.

Today we came home with the Easy Walk Harness.   It helped me to control him,,,I can say that for sure.We'll see how it goes during the week,,sure not throwing the reciept away on this one either.   However....I was able to walk out better with him after class today...and I can tell you when he is finished with his him 1 hour plus class,,, he is like an over tired two year old kid......Not listening to anything!!!   Right now he is sound asleep,,,,, sleeping off his hard day in class!

dyan

BUT I dont' think I understand how you train a dog to walk on a leash without a leash.

I shape a "walk next to me" behaviour OFF LEAD and attach a "lets go" cue.  And then when the dog is really really good at it, i add the lead, but let him drag it along the ground, using the same cue to tell him "how" I want him to walk.  When he is really good at THAT I put one end of the lead in my pocket, again using the cue.  Eventually I can HOLD the lead, but it's more of an ornament than anything else.  It's not what connects us. 

Clothier suggests that sometimes a lead becomes a substitute for a "quality connection"... she also suggests that a lot of training problems can be solved by going right back to square one and doing it over.   Food for thought?

yeah, the off-lead work is what I do too. Leash is only for legal purposes and emergencies. Dog learns to walk with you which is what you want- the leash should never go taut if you're both keeping up your sides of the "walking together" thing. Lots of people put the leash on and use it to drag the dog around instead of doing the training and then wonder why the dog thinks it's ok to drag them around too.

Okay...I get it.

BUT,,,sounds like a way to train a new puppy.

Is it too late for a 7 month old puppy?

I do know...that in our yard we have him out unleashed with us when we are both there playing ball with him....he actually listens better than when he is leashed...such as when a neighbor comes out....he starts to go by them and we tell him no and he listens...turns and comes back to us. But if he was on a leash..he pulls me to them and then jumps on the people.

How do you get him to go or stop when you do? And what do you do if he gets way ahead...or behind.   What if he stops to smell something...or pick something up?

http://www.2houndsdesign.com/

May I suggest this site for martingale collars? I know she doesn't have the chain style martingale, but her collars are so nice. She lines the inside of the collar so it doesn't chafe the neck. I've had mine for 2 years now and they are just now showing wear. Not to mention, she has an awesome selection of beautiful ribbons/fabrics. Makes me wish that I had a large dog to buy the wider collars for!

 Good luck with Gibson!

Amy

dyan

BUT,,,sounds like a way to train a new puppy.

Is it too late for a 7 month old puppy?

No it is not too late.  BUT you do have to allow more TIME, because a new puppy only has to LEARN what you want... An older pup has to UNLEARN something which he has already learned...  Plus, as they approach adolescence, there are all kinds of things going on in his brain which make learning.... haphazard.  They seem to forget things that you "know" they knew perfectly well a week ago, one day they absorb something new just fine and anotehr day they struggle.

dyan

How do you get him to go or stop when you do? And what do you do if he gets way ahead...or behind.   What if he stops to smell something...or pick something up?

Use that "solid sit" taht you have worked on?  That's what I did with our last pup and although she was nowhere heat Gibbys sizr or strength, she was VERY exciteable.

Chuffy

Plus, as they approach adolescence, there are all kinds of things going on in his brain which make learning.... haphazard.  They seem to forget things that you "know" they knew perfectly well a week ago, one day they absorb something new just fine and anotehr day they struggle.

Chuffy

Use that "solid sit" taht you have worked on?  That's what I did with our last pup and although she was nowhere heat Gibbys sizr or strength, she was VERY exciteable.

Oh..you mean the SIT that he USED to do right away...but now decided " I don't really feel like sitting!"  Funny you would put these two things in the same post...because when you said "they forget things they know",,,,SIT is one of them.   He DOES sit and wait for his meals...and I am getting him to sit before letting him out of the door ( since he started barnstorming a few weeks back ) but now often "sit" comes with a little nudge on the butt.  

He does kind of respond to WAIT.  He kind of does know "no."    I say "kind of" because he DOES know a lot...its what he chooses to do at that time.   HHHmm!

And I realized that doing anything outside right now is tough because the leaves that are have fallen make a whole lot of noise...and its been on the windy side here often.....and it does get him crazy.   Bubblegum used to get "freaked" with it was windy....   Gibby is almost getting there...but I don't think he is afraid as I thought Bubby was.   But taking a "dump" out there at 6:00AM while dark this morning was living proof,,,he had his head turning every which way...I actually thought he was going to walk away before he was finished.

 Stick at it - be consistent and patient and he will get there!  Remember: say his name, then the cue, WAIT, give him ONE more chance with the cue and then consequence.  Often with young dogs I just gently mold the response I was expecting, a reminder if you like; like you say a nudge on his butt.  When I'm using NILIF (sit for the door for example) then the consequence would be that the door did not open, or the ball was not thrown.

Keep your pulse rate down, breathe slooow and keep your voice soft and calm.   A person who is calm and sure inspires others to stop and listen, both human and dog!

Chuffy

Keep your pulse rate down, breathe slooow and keep your voice soft and calm.   A person who is calm and sure inspires others to stop and listen, both human and dog!

I need to send you Gibson for a while! 

dyan

Chuffy

Keep your pulse rate down, breathe slooow and keep your voice soft and calm.   A person who is calm and sure inspires others to stop and listen, both human and dog!

I need to send you Gibson for a while! 

I would relish the opportunity to eat my words!

Seriously - the harder it is to do, the more assured you can be that THAT is what is needed and what will work.

The most difficult dogs brings the strongest bonds.  All I can say is, there must be one heckuva relationship in store or you as Gibby matures...!