Martingale Collar

However..not sure why this collar is so much NICER for the dog....

because when properly adjusted they only tighten enough to not-be-able-to-slide-off over the dog's head. They are basically just a safer version of a flat buckle collar. A slip collar or choker just keeps tightening and tightening and causes damage to trachea, skin, muscle, vertebrae. They are NOT training collars and should not be used to deliver collar corrections.

mudpuppy

They are NOT training collars and should not be used to deliver collar corrections.

Why?

I mean.... why not? 

If everyone says they use it because it stays higher on the neck...and it does tighten when pulled ( although not too much if fitted properly ) why can't it be used for collar corrections. Such as a little "tug" when the dog starts pulling a little.

You don't keep a collar high on the neck normally unless you are walking them,,,right?

 I imagine that would hurt, to give the dog a tug with the collar in that position....?

One of the reasons to keep the collar high is so that you have more control of the head.  Its better to pull the collar up as opposed to back if the dog is pulling you.  The dog is going to naturally oppose that pull and move forward.  But, they can't if its pulled up.  Hope that makes sense.

dyan

I can't see any collar training a dog....gee the Gentle Leader didn't even do that...lol!  The trainer suggested it as a safer way to use a collar that

Dyan, when they call it a 'training collar' it's not that they're saying the collar *trains* the dog.  It doesn't.

It's simply a collar to use WHEN training.  The whole purpose of a chain collar originally was because when you give that tiny tug on the leash the dog hears that "zip clink" sound in it's ear which you pair with the next command.  It's like saying "Are you ready to work?" without so many words.

Why is it more comfortable?  Because it can't tighten past a certain point.  With the Martingale you adjust the collar so the D-rings "meet" (the collar is sized specifically to the size of the neck).  Then the chain insert allows it to relax and be more comfortable.

 But the dog can't continue to pull and make the collar tighter and tighter (which it can with a nylon 'slip' collar or a plain chain collar).  No choking. 

But it's the human who trains -- and you have to train obedience with the collar on so the dog understands the commands.  The collar simply doesn't allow itself to over-tighten.

Make sense now?

calliecritturs

Make sense now?

Thanks Callie,,,but it always did. I have one. The trainer gave it to me to try out.

My reason for choosing the word "nicer" is because it still tightens.

And my reason for mentioning a collar training a dog..is because that is what was written.

The MC won't train a dog not to pull at all -

I have been using the borrowed collar now for a few days...and its working great for Gibson. However...again, we still haven't "run into" any other dogs or even people on our short walks that we have been "practicing" with.  I do not expect miracles.... I am just looking for something to help us in our leaning process....    I do not want  him hurt and I do feel the Gentle Leader was causing him way too much stress...and his bruise on his nose is still there after several weeks.  So the Gentle Leader isn't very gentle for him. 

I love the one I am borrowing because it does have the chain which I am hoping the noise of it might help....and it also has the quick latch on to make getting on/off easier.   Now I am trying to find one to purchase.

It tightens only until the rings meet -- which is my problem with most regular collars because either they are always too loose or always too tight.  This relaxes when he's not pulling at all but it won't allow it to go too far and shut off the circulation.

You can get a regular Martingale at PetSmart.  I've never gotten one that actually had a catch to come 'off'.  I always adjust it JUST so it will fit over the skull (not easily -- but it will come off) and with a dog like Foxy whose neck was bigger THAN his skull I kept it high on his neck.  But I've always just slipped the collar off over the head when not using it.

Which Martingale is comfy for *your* dog depends on coat in large degree -- with Foxy he had that fluffy quadruple majorly fluffed out coat *grin* so the fact that the nylon was slippery helped a great deal.

Billy wouldn't back out of a collar if you paid him -- I mean gee whiz, if ya did that you might not get ta GO!!! Ya no????? DUMB -- so his is so loose it's ludicrous.

Luna B's is pretty tight cos she's always gotta try and decide what SHE wants to do.  Tink wears a harness (You know -- stage "fairies" and Peter Pan always wear a harness to sail thru the air??  She just thinks SHE doesn't need one at all LOL *rolling eyes*). 

I haven't used a GL in years simply because my trainer has always contended that they increase the likely hood of neck problems -- cos an adamant puller is gonna pull even if it hurts them.  They don't care -- they want to go THIS WAY!!!!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

But that's why we use the Sporn on Luna when we're just walking.  There are just certain times when the "hound" part of her (i.e., the NOSE) takes over and the brain exits out the side.  The NOSE says it's going HERE and the rest of the world be d@mned.  The Sporn makes that manageable without stress.

But the Sporn isn't acceptable for the CGC, etc.  Good tool -- but it's not really a 'training' collar.

I mean.... why not? 

If everyone says they use it because it stays higher on the neck...and it does tighten when pulled ( although not too much if fitted properly ) why can't it be used for collar corrections. Such as a little "tug" when the dog starts pulling a little.

a little "tug" isn't a collar correction- there's a remote possibility that it may help in that situation by distracting the dog and could be applied to any device you have attaching the dog to the leash by, including a body harness. A collar correction is painful, a punishment intended to stop the dog from ever doing that again. You can't really inflict an effective correction with a properly adjusted martingale, all you can do is "nag" at the dog which is ineffective. When people talk about "training collars" they generally mean a prong or a choke chain.

mudpuppy

A collar correction is painful, a punishment intended to stop the dog from ever doing that again. You can't really inflict an effective correction with a properly adjusted martingale, all you can do is "nag" at the dog which is ineffective.

Wow -- NOT with any good, effective trainer I've ever worked with -- even 20 years ago I was taught **not** to jerk/yank but rather simply to make the sound as a 'trigger' to change behaviors.  Never ever (even with the poorest trainer that I hated and never went back to) NEVER was I taught to inflict "pain" as a punishment.  All stressed that a collar correction should never ever be painfully tight and should simply be a few links of the chain going thru close to the ear to make that little "zip-clink" sound

Gee whiz -- if the rest of the world thinks THAT is a collar correction it's no wonder everyone fights about it.  Sheesh. 

 A collar correction doesn't have to be horribly abusively painful.  But the point of a punishment is that the dog avoids it in future.  Why should the dog avoid the sound of the collar. unless associated with something unpleasant?

That aside, I think I understand what MP was saying.  If the collar has no limit on it, you can punish the dog, in that you can cause enough discomfort taht the dog will work to avoid it in future.  If there is a limit, you can't do this.  This makes it ineffective for that purpose.  By the same token, this is what makes this choice of collar a good one IMO - you can't hurt the dog with it.  (Intentionally or otherwise.)

If you are able to make the dog respond to the clinky noise of the collar (without the punishment side of it), that's a different kettle of fish.

Chuffy

If you are able to make the dog respond to the clinky noise of the collar (without the punishment side of it), that's a different kettle of fish.

That's exactly how I've always taught mine -- and they surely don't 'avoid' it. 

 Not saying there's anything wrong with it - just that I understand the point MP was making about it "not being a training collar".

Chuffy

 Not saying there's anything wrong with it - just that I understand the point MP was making about it "not being a training collar".

I understand -- I'm just shaking my head here - it's no wonder everyone gets so hot and argumentative (which is the stuff I always avoid with a passion) when it's taught and viewed so differently AND that everyone *assumes* a certain thing. 

To me a training collar is one you put on the dog when you go training.  short ... simple ... (somehow I'm getting this mental image of the dog wearing Johnny Carson's old "Amazing Kreskin" hat holding a 3X5 card to its head and saying "ohhhhh, this is a training collar ... THAT MEANS I'm supposed to ______________.  I just needed the collar to TRAIN me ...";)

Sorry -- it's like doing dishes or making dinner ... someone can try to make it more "convenient" but they aren't ever gonna just DO themselves.  Someone's gotta expend some energy somewhere even if it's to rinse the dishes and put them in the dishwasher ... ohhhh, wait THAT's the thing I've been meaning to get .... 

*Callie wandering back to her corner to sit down ... chuckling to herself ... and remembering her Dad's old saying 'If the student hasn't learned the Teacher hasn't taught ...'*

mudpuppy

A collar correction is painful, a punishment intended to stop the dog from ever doing that again. You can't really inflict an effective correction with a properly adjusted martingale, all you can do is "nag" at the dog which is ineffective. When people talk about "training collars" they generally mean a prong or a choke chain.

Well I guess the Genle Leader is a "training collar"...just ask Gibson.  lol! 

Yikes!  The trainer says "no slip collar in class", and that was helping a little....maybe. She suggested the MC because it is the same principle but not as dangerous...but your saying it would be ineffective.   So that gets us to the point of wondering if this whole "positive" thing is working. 

I work with him every single day...have tried so many different ideas...to treat,,,not to treat, this collar, that collar...harness...G.L.  I can't believe this is so hard.  Can't believe he is so easy in the house...and so hard on a walk.

 I syand by what I said before.... I think the thing that will work best with him is a) finding some equipment taht will allow you not to be dragged when he gets it in his head to go somewhere and b) making THE WALK itself the reward for walking nicely.  It will take TIME, sure, but I think it will work.  I feel for you I really do because its HARD when you think your going 1 pace forward and 2 back.... but you are nOT alone and Gibby is NOT doing badly.  He is normal and he WILL get there.  The conflicting advice doesn't help I know, but what you have to do is decide on your course of actiona and Stick to it!!!!  Inconsistency will get him nowhere.  Just decide, and run with it and don't switch the moment he gets a set back.

I honestly think half the problem is your own insecurity - you feel at the mercy of Gibby and his strength and you are unsure of what you are doing.  Have some faith in yourself!  You are a GOOD dog owner.  Gibby might be testing you but I am confident it's nothing you can't handle.