Clicker Training Help - Crossover Trouble

Is this in the context of free-shaping?  Or trying to get a specific behavior?  Perhaps the reinforcement is not high enough for him to want to earn it?  Just throwing some things out there.

Can you describe more about what you're trying to get when he does this?  What's the surroundings, the reinforcer, etc?

 Is he throwing out behaviors super fast? Or just slow and random?

His hearing is ok, right?

Sometimes I'm not sure about his hearing.  I'd like to test it someday.  But I know he CAN hear - he comes running when he hears the treat bad rattle and that's the same range as a clicker.

I've worked on both trying to capture and free shaping.  Free shaping makes him most anxious.  It's one thing I'm particularly unsure how to handle. 

He's a BC, so when I'm looking for something, he "gets" what I want in two guesses usually, then offers it one more time, then seems to mentally blow up.  I train in the study with the door closed and the rest of the dogs in another part of the house. 

 It sounds like he's doing the equivalent of what happens sometimes with Sequoyah.  She will "get" what I want, then repeat, then not want to go further.  I think it's her way of saying "I DID that already - now what else are we going to do?"  So, with her, I just make the training sessions a bit shorter.  Sometimes, at first, when she gets it, I quit and let her think about it for a while before going back to get a more refined response.

With Sioux, a crossover dog, I did not immediately free shape or capture.  Instead, I asked for things she already knew, and C/T her for doing them.  She realized very quickly that the click was actually the marker (which, before, had been "good job";).  I find that, even though you would think it obvious that the dog already understands, it does help some dogs, because they are anxious about being "wrong", since it may have led to punishment in the past - that's why, for some dogs, free shaping is so stressful. 

 What is the rate of reinforcement?  And how long are training sessions?

spiritdogs

Instead, I asked for things she already knew, and C/T her for doing them.  She realized very quickly that the click was actually the marker (which, before, had been "good job";).  I find that, even though you would think it obvious that the dog already understands, it does help some dogs, because they are anxious about being "wrong", since it may have led to punishment in the past - that's why, for some dogs, free shaping is so stressful. 

I would probably try to spend time C&T behaviors he already knows, in order to build his confidence with the clicker.  It sounds like he's getting a little overwhelmed, and starts offering every behavior he can think of.  So I might postpone free shaping until he's comfortable with incorporating the clicker into commands (and then refining).  As a BC, he'll probably love free shaping eventually, but it sounds like he needs time to understand that the clicker won't cause him any adversity.

 Thanks Anne!  It's going to be hard to do that because he has only a couple of non-sheep commands and he gets very anxious about his sheepie commands.  Ie, if I ask him to "lie down" with no sheep he has a meltdown.  I have never run into that before - once they learn on sheep normally, I have a rock solid, happy, down-on-the-spot forever and ever.

But, I can do things like crate and uh, I'll think of something.  He kind of knows spin but only if I hold my mouth right and the moon is in the right quarter. 

Chuffy

What is the rate of reinforcement?  And how long are training sessions?

We're still at 100%.  We can't go longer than maybe 2 minutes.

I forgot to mention that charging the clicker was really weird for him too.  Many BCs start offering behaviors almost instantly (Zhi did too) and you can then go on to whatever the next step would be for that dog.  But with him, he started doing the thing he happened to be doing when I clicked the very first time, which was scratching his ear.  After that, he scratched his ear every time I thought I was "loading" the clicker, about five more reps.  Then when I realized what had just happened, I stopped reinforcing that and that was the first time he had a meltdown.  He walked around and showed stressy signals and ignored the clicker - refused the treat.

So, not so great beginning.  Obviously, I had to start over - I got some really terrific treats (dried lamb liver) the next time, and set one under a lid with the clicker in my pocket.  I marked him touching the lid and that went well for a while (maybe a minute), asking for other stuff not just the lid touching, and then he started scratching his ear again, and then he'd only take a treat for the ear scratching, and then he had a meltdown.

I feel like I'm begging him to have fun or something.  It's kind of annoying actually - I'm sure he'll be good at this and enjoy it if he catches on.

 When I say the "rate", I mean, say, how many seconds between treats

What I had to do with Max was keep the clicker in my pocket and just click very randomly at first.  For doing ANYTHING.  The rate was a treat every few seconds. 

Cord is SMART and he has already kinda caught on to this "game" - in his eyes, you're lagging behind!  So he's getting frustrated.  To be honest, I don't think I would cope well clicker training a dog like that!   Dell is bad enough.  She is fast and methodical.  She usually tries "sitting" at you, she will sit in every position and in various locations.  When she exhausts the "sit" possibility, she moves on to "down" in the same way.  It can be frustrating at time to work with her, because sometimes she speeds past the behaviour I want and I miss the opportunity to reward it.  Cord sounds "worse".  Good luck with him!!!!!

Thanks, that's a good answer.  It makes a lot of sense.  Gee, and I thought I was "fast enough" after years of doing this with BCs (I couldn't measure rate in seconds between treats when I'm starting, but rather multiples per second).  But there's always one that's ahead of you, right?  Cord throws in that random flavor when he gets frustrated which then escalates to stress very quickly.  He was bred by a sheepdog trial guy who is at the top of his game and prefers dogs that allow him to "think for them" and this is one type of thinking/training combination that gets him there.  But for us ordinary mortals it rarely works.   

Addendum:  I just timed myself, and I overestimated how fast I'm going - it's right at one click per second once the dog is "in the zone" and just waiting for the pez dispenser.   

I know results vary for different people but clicker training has been the best tool for me and Shadow. I am from the south and have a bit of a drawl from being in Texas since 1974. I have listened to myself and it sounds like I make "good boy" into 3 syllables. My experience in singing has taught how much the voice can vary from hour to hour, let alone day to day. However, I have excellent hand-eye coordination and I can mark precisely with a clicker what it is I want. That is, I can mark in dog-time. Add to that the realization that Shadow is actually a soft dog in some ways and that all he really needed to know is what I wanted in the first place helps it be such a success for us. I say he is a soft dog, even though he is independent and physically rugged.  When he is running along the fence with a neighbor dog and I step into the path, he can run into my leg and it doesn't faze him a bit. I used to scruff and pin and that was play to him, because his previous owner wrestled with him when they played. Not only was he accidently trained to view phsyical measures as a reinforcement, but he is also physically rugged to where some thngs simply won't cause pain or be viewed as a punishment. And, to top it off, he is the type of dog who likes to work, to be told what is expected. In some ways, I am quite lucky.

I think there's luck in what you have with Shadow than you might think.  I wouldn't hesitate for a second placing most any type of dog with you, even one with specific handling needs.  When I look at potential adopters, I look less at environments and superficial thinkgs like how many kids and hours of work.  I look for attitude - is this person willing to go the extra mile and figure out what the dog needs when the dog has left here? 

What you are talking about with Shadow with his being soft is an interesting thing that we sheepdog people have been talking about for generations.  It's less noticeable in Huskies because it's part of the breed to be independant.  That's less useful in a sheepdog (you need the dog to be functional independently but you don't want to say, "Go left" and the dog say, "Well, I'm not sure about that" and then the sheep get away).

For us it's about balance - we need a dog with plenty of "go" - but if you breed to much into a dog, he'll start refusing to be a team player.  Some dogs show that by doing things like taking the bit in their teeth and chasing and biting.  Others have instincts NOT to do that stuff that is too strong, and so they will engage in avoidance behaviors.  Cord's like that.

It's likely that something similar happened in Shadow's makeup.  He's got strong GO-GO instincts, but also the lab in him says "NOT TOO FAR - what's Dad got to say about that?"  Until he was sure what you wanted that mix wold make it hard to sort out what was going on in his head, versus what you were asking him to do.

if he has bad associations with "training" in general maybe you should avoid anything that remotely resembles a training session for awhile? just carry the clicker and treats around and whenever he does something you like click n treat and then keep going on about your business?

So much good advice already, but I might just go back to charging the click for a while with liverwurst or something similarly valuable. Then move to small things like, looking at me (no command given), or the 101 things to do with a box. Look at the box, C/T, do it again jackpot! Look a third time C/T. End session.

It sounds like he needs a lot of really strong encouragement for doing things. I like what Mudpuppy said above.