Do dogs really need people to take care of things for them?

Most dogs may not "feel" the need for us to protect them but here is the logistical reality. If we don't take care of the situation, they will. You're quite right, the dog is quite willing to protect him/herself. Let tell an old story for the umpteenth time. Shadow's friend from his early life was Duke, a Jack Russell Terrier. Shadow loved Duke, 1/4 his size but every bit as determined as any JRT could be. Duke eventually got re-homed with some other people that live around Lake Texoma, not too far from the Hagarman Wildlife Refuge, govt, land chosen to be a refuge for wild animals, such as wolves, coyote, deer. In fact, in the Refuge, animals have right of way. Duke got out of his yard. And met a coyote, And air snapping didn't solve anything. Duke lost the argument with the coyote and was carried off. How's that for natural for you?

I agree, dogs will find a solution for themselves, often before we can physically get there. But, in some cases, with some dogs, we need to be the solution. Or live the with natural results. A Corgi is capable of biting off one of my shoe laces. A GSD is capable of taking out a piece of my thigh and hobbling me for life. In today's litigious society, the GSD is more of an insurance risk than the Corgi, simply based on possible damage liability. A corgi can knock down a trash can. A Husky can knock down a human. Which one can we afford to always solve his/her own problems?

However, letting the dogs defend for themselves and work it out does make for easy training days.

I'm not sure if this is quite what you're talking about but I have realized in recent years that my dog is much better at dealing with another dog when I'm not close.Previously she would cling to my legs and shake.I always took that for fear of the new dog.I've had the occasion to see her alone in the yard and with my son at Petco greet a strange dog .The results were that she greeted the dog in our yard with hackels up and sent it packing.At Petco she had her tail wagging away.I now believe her earlier reaction was all me.My anxiety projected onto her.When I think of all the times I left her home because I didn't think SHE was good with other dogs it makes me sad.

As far as Penny goes,I've yet to meet a Corgi who can't "take care of their own affairs".There are some dogs who seem for whatever reason to not understand dog-language.Perhaps they were taken from the litter too young or just not socailized well enough.Those individuals may need more human help as the don't read other dogs well enough and get themselves into trouble.

Tena

Aside from a life or death situation, I'm beginning to think its best to let the dogs take care of things themselves.  Again, unless harm is imminent.

It seems to me that if I stand in the way of two dogs (protecting one) that are having slight issues...it is projecting that the protectee cannot fend for himself.   And, I'm not so sure that's a good thing.  Could it hinder self confidence in the dog I'm trying to protect?  Maybe.

 I trust my older dog, Emma, with any situation. She's had 5 years to prove herself, and she's slightly lacking in bite inhibition, but as long as she isn't taking any medication, she's incredible. She's currently helping me raise a hairless puppy and has only left two tooth marks on her in five months.

I do *not* trust random dogs we meet. Soooo many dogs cannot read doggy language due to lack of socialization. I'm afraid somebody will take her play language as an invitation to fight, or her "back off" as an invite to play and there will be a big problem.  If she's with dogs that she knows well, I very, very rarely step in. If there are strangers involved, I'll step in much more quickly.

Most people cannot read dog body language at all, and even experts at it cannot read it as well as any well-socialized dog. There's no way a silly human's meddling in the interaction is either desired by the dogs or good for the dogs. The only things you need to take care of for dogs is keeping them safe when dealing with "things of people" that dogs don't understand, like traffic.

I agree with Jennie.  I know my own dogs.  I don't know other dogs.  Just by my understanding of how my dogs interact with other dog, I'm already helping them.  I'm using my human ability to evaluate the "big picture" and project various outcomes based on possible scenarios.

Dogs as a species have inconsistent social skills.  Genetic manipulation has taken away my ability to say, "Every dog will react like X under Y circumstances."  

So when my dog meets a new dog, I will try to even the odds for my dog to have a good experience.  Stress or not stress, how my dogs' precious feelings lie - it doesn't matter to me as much as the fact that I don't want my dog drawn into a pitched battle.  Socializing with other dogs isn't that important to me to take that risk.

I can use my verbal skills to communicate with the owner of the new dog.  I can use my knowledge of my own dog and memory of past experiences to feel out whether a social interaction would be worth whatever negative experience might be in store for both my dog and the visiting dog, not to mention the dog's owner.

After that I don't mess around with legs or whatever.  If I can't control the situation verbally, then I will put my own dogs away.  Some of my dogs need this, some don't. 

My young dog Ted was a bit of a nerd his first year, less of a nerd last year, and now is pretty much safe around all dogs, even rude ones.  He didn't learn that by my letting him interact freely with dogs when he was nerdy.  It's a direct reflection of his trust in me as we've grown as working partners.

Maggie I allow to interact with very few dogs freely, although she's much better than she used to be.  Maggie is a bully, an uncertain alpha with only limited skills to enforce her demand for resources and rights.

Her free interaction with Ben when he was a puppy, who was a more natural alpha, undermined his ability to communicate with other dogs likewise.

Between the two of them, I realized that they were teaching my puppies and young dogs incorrect behaviors. I started directly interfering in their interactions and immediately I stopped having problems with my babies.

Zhi on the other hand is perfect at socializing young dogs and even helping to modify behavior in adult dogs with severe problems.  I've had dogs turned in for moderately severe dog aggression, which Zhi within seconds got playing happily with her.  You can see the surprised joy on these dogs faces, and a few more exposures to Zhi and these dogs will also be safe with dogs like Gus and the late Ben, Lynn, then Maggie and finally Teddy.  These dogs aren't fixed but it helps them start with success before we start formal training.

What I do with dogs lets them fix themselves, in the sense that I don't tell them what you do.  But, progress is almost impossible without management and giving handicapped dogs tools to learn the skills they need to survive in the real world.

I'm not a dictator or someone who thinks for dogs.  For my own dogs and trainees, I'm a partner - a senior partner who decides where and when.  For dogs that need it, I'm more of an occupational therapist.
 

jennie_c_d

I do *not* trust random dogs we meet. Soooo many dogs cannot read doggy language due to lack of socialization. I'm afraid somebody will take her play language as an invitation to fight, or her "back off" as an invite to play and there will be a big problem.  If she's with dogs that she knows well, I very, very rarely step in. If there are strangers involved, I'll step in much more quickly.

This is what I do all the time in introducing a new foster to an existing pack.  I trust the pack and I know how they will react in any situation but the variable in the situation is the new dog.  I count on the power of many well behaved, balanced dogs meeting a single dog to have total influence on the new dog's reaction.  The singular dog is going to learn the canine language of the many dogs very fast.

One thing my current fosters are teaching me is that separate groups of dogs develop their own canine language and when the groups meet, they retain their own language and expect the other group of dogs to understand.  Some behaviors are intended to signify play but interpretted as aggression and vice versa.  Quite a problem for the entire group. 

Interesting, everyone.

From my perspective, I don't exactly trust strange dogs we meet, but I am increasingly finding myself looking to my own dogs to tell me whether I should trust them or not. If Penny is gravitating away from the dog, has stopped and lowered her eyes, or done anything else that suggests she wants to avoid this new dog, I take that to mean it's not a dog to trust and we get well out of the way. If she is looking at the dog and still seems to want to meet and greet even if it will be a little tense, I tend to let her as long as the owner is okay with it. I don't entirely trust Kivi yet, but I have noticed lately that he's very good and is shaping up to be every bit as good as Penny if not better. He is extremely committed to winning canine friends and has gone to a lot of effort to learn the various ways he can do that.

Of course, it's easy to trust a small dog. Kivi at the moment is way too rough with small dogs in general, despite having Penny around to teach him respect of small dogs. Last time Mum's Sheltie puppy visited he spent a lot of time trying to drag her out from under chairs by her tail and getting his mouth around as much of her as possible. He is improving, but we've got to watch him with little dogs and make sure he doesn't forget how big he has grown.

I guess another thing I find interesting is that while it might be true that many dogs don't understand usual doggy language, I've noticed that Penny still seems to be able to make some sense out of them and behaves accordingly. She met a dog that couldn't decide if she wanted to play or lunge at one point. Penny seemed to think it was really play and spent a bit of time trying to invite the dog to come and say hello. In the end the dog did, and gained a bit of confidence.

I have yet to meet a dog owner at the dog park that had a clue about canine psychology. First rule is prevention and that's to steer clear of potential dogs and their owner until you know for certain because just because the light is green, doesn't mean there isn't cars coming.

Of course, it's easy to trust a small dog.

you're joking right? I personally have never been bitten by a dog that weighed more than 30 pounds; been gnawed on for no reason by many a small dog. Have had to detach several small vicious terriers from worried "mom this thing is biting me what do I do" great danes. Small dogs are in my experience much more likely to be dog and human aggressive.

I don't do "meet and greets". Ever. Bad thing to teach a dog that he may get to go play with any random dog he sees. If you're out having a healthy jog do you stop and chat with every person you see? of course not.

In a Large kennel such as mine you can choose to interfer on every level or you can discriminate and decide is it a situation where pack order is being decided and is easily resolved or if it is a true aggression issue and your stepping in will both eliminate possible escalation and injury to either dog involved.

Do they expect us to settle all of their issues? no I don't think so, but we can and often do train them to differ to us in diferent situations.

Bonita of Bwana

It's easy to trust a small dog that's mine. I know she's not suicidal and I know if she does get her back up she can't do as much damage as a big dog. She can't sit on dog and pin them to the ground in the process like Kivi Tarro can.

I love meet and greets. It's great that my dogs have canine friends, and it's so good that Kivi gets the chance to play rough when most of the time he's only got Penny, who doesn't want to play for very long. It makes them happy and teaches Kivi all the different ways different dogs talk. We do walk them as well, though, and they know on leash on the footpath is not an appropriate place to play. Even Kivi knows that and he's a 7 month old dog and play obsessed adolescent. I haven't found it difficult in the least. I don't see why we can't have meet and greets and manage to walk past dogs without meet and greets as well. It's not like he runs up to any dog he sees and jumps all over them, even in the dog park (although some do that to him). He's always been better mannered than that and generally lets the other dog make the first move. It's just a matter of learning that he's not a puppy anymore and puppy behaviour is no longer tolerated. Poor boy is going through a period of "Why does everyone hate me??", but he's gotta learn and Penny can't teach him and nor can I. Only other dogs can.

I don't mind if my dog issues a warning bark and I don't mind if another dog issues mine a warning bark.  The only time I will step in is if my dog is in a defenseless situation. Such as, a loose dog in the neighborhood and my dog is on leash. Or, we are at the dog park and little Cruiser is really being picked on by a large group (it doesn't happen often, but it does happen).    I've really had to step back though and let them work things out with other dogs at the dog park when I can.  When I stand (close) by and watch I realize that they really do establish an order and hierarchy.  Now, I wouldn't let a dog be overly dominant either, I've seen idiots at the dog park who's dogs hump non stop and the owners just think it's funny and say it's not bad manners.  I completely disagree.  So, basically I do think  nature should take it's course unless the dog is helpless or in immenent danger, or for the sake of training a dog how to have reasonable manners, but I don't consider something like a warning bark bad manners.