Dog Aggressive? Space issues? Confused.....

sillysally

backed one of her dogs up to Sally

Walking backwards is a sign of submission. The dog walked back, Sally wasn't threatened. She walked towards another dog - face to face, she was threatened. That's how I would interrperate that one.

It honestly sounds like she has confidence issues. She's been attacked several times (not her doing the intial attacking) so now she has to 'keep her guard up'. I would do some confidence boosting activies with this trainers dogs, and see how that goes. Does she do agility or anything like that? That's something I always think of when trying to boost a dogs confidence.

sillysally

The trainer had us do exercises where we walked down the aisles towards each other. the dogs were allowed to look at each other

I've seen a few trainers do this, but I personally, do not like it. I feel that it's more or less setting the dogs up to size eachother up - make sense? If you ever watch a video of fighting dogs, they set the two dogs up in corners, and have them stare the other dog, then release - on opposite sides of the pen - a lot like walking two dogs towards eachother. That's just the way I see it though....

It's a hard one without knowing Sally better. After Penny had a few run-ins with dogs that were very traumatic for her, she was pretty nervous around strange dogs for a long while. She gradually got better when she discovered she could buy herself space by snapping at the noses of these other dogs. She got even better when she met a few large dogs that she really liked and felt secure around. She's still a fan of the nose-snap, but you would never know from looking at her with other dogs that she had been to the vets several times getting stitches from dog fights.

The thing is, even at her lowest point, Penny was still a pretty confident dog. And she was small. She had to find something to buy her space that wouldn't start fights because if she started something she would probably lose. I would be tempted to instead of reducing Sally's exposure to other dogs, increasing it. She has never drawn blood. As far as I'm concerned, dog fights that don't result in blood are pretty benign. Maybe I'm a bit blase, but sometimes I think the best favour we can do our nervous dogs is trust them and help them find ways to make themselves feel better. I think when it comes to dogs, they should be given every chance to learn what to expect and how to react on their own. From your descriptions, I honestly don't think Sally has much of a problem, but you would know better than me. 

 I would try a class.  If the trainer knows that she potentially has issues with other dogs and lets the other people in the class know there shouldn't be a problem.  It can really help her with confidence.  Hopefully, she will learn that she can be around strange dogs without getting all worked up, that the other dogs will not hurt her.  Also training her in this type of setting will help her learn that she can focus on you and what she is doing in the presence of other dogs.

Just a caveat, there's some difficulties inherent in trying to sum up a situation like this, without seeing the dog.

With that said, you've given what seems to be a very clear picture of what is going on.  By the end of the description (what kind of cookie do I get?), I had a pretty precise image of Sally and some of the possible underlying personality traits and weaknesses that are causing you a problem.

To directly answer the question in your topic subject line.  I think "Confused" actually is an excellent description of Sally, at least the first link in the chain.  Yes, I know you meant you!  The other two things?  Well, meh, I'm not into categories like those, although I do use terms like that as shorthand.  In this case I don't think they are useful - I least I wouldn't start in either of those places looking for answers. 

The Reader's Digest version of the following is that I agree with those who recommended measures to increase her confidence.  I believe you should start at home and look for small scale ways to do that, however.

Sally has limited dog on dog social skills.  That's where she starts - and it's a natural thing for a pit bull - they were never intended to be canine team players.  She's like the kid in school with a KICK ME sign on her.  And she knows it, after her first few experiences in life with other dogs.

Just like that nerdy kid with the chip on his shoulder, she has learned that the best defense is a good offense.  Failing a good offense, which she really doesn't have, just being ON the offense all the time, is a natural next best choice.

Some of this you may never alleviate beyond being simply manageable.  It's probable that she will never be a dog you can allow to socialize with other dogs.  BUT, a reasonable goal is that she will pay more attention to you than to another dog.  Unprovoked attack is NOT a breed trait - pibbles are not supposed to have hair triggers.

With that in mind, back up your training and work her obedience in the house, out of the house, at random times - and try to think of new ways to include her in your activities.  Does she know "tricks"?  Really up the ante on her training.  Make yourself the most intersting thing on earth. 

After that, slowly test the boundaries of her tolerance.  That point when she turns from you to another dog - that's her telling you that she doesn't fully understand her job yet.  She doesn't trust you 100% to take care of that other thing in her life. 

Make it easer and ask again, then tell her with clicks (if you clicker train) and her favorite rewards and gentle CALM praise, that she is wonderful.  Ask a few more times, then increase the difficulty again.  For a dog that's really having fear and communication problems, I like to mark the message a dog sends me that they are not ready for that level of difficulty (by disobeying), with a quiet, "Oh well."

One of the problems I have with trainers and what I often hear about them (I'm often the person they call after they've "done everything" and "even called an in-home trainer.";) - I know they only have a limited amount of time, but instead of demonstrating a technique and assigning homework that will get you somewhere, it seems like many of them want to be the next Cesar Milan and solve the problem in one or two passes. 

This will take a long time.  Start the first step and plan not to expose her to any dogs, any more than necessary, for a couple of months.  Yes, that was months - that's how long it takes a behavior to move from the lobe in the front where conscious thought lives, back to the place where it becomes more or less automatic, and can override even strong emotional or autonomic based behaviors. 

Likewise, divide the task of paying attention to you in the presence of other dogs, into smaller chunks, which you'll also spend a couple of months reinforcing before you move on.  For instance, get her sound in the presence of dogs she knows and trusts more, dogs she's not familiar with but are like dogs she trusts, young dogs of the opposite sex, and so on and so on. 

Ultimately, the highest goal would be being able to handle her OFF leash around dogs she already dislikes.  But it's not a failure if you can't get that far with her.  In fact, every success is a success in itself - one step closer - and the more you can build up, the more you'll have to build ON with her.

I hope this make sense.  And you get a Dove chocolate if you have read the whole thing.  :D 

Yay! Dove for me!

Hey Becca, this is off topic but just a curious question. Do you think every dog should look to their person whenever they find themselves in a slightly tense situation or one they don't entirely like?  

I think taking a group training class would be excellent for Sally. What you need is to teach her to ignore other dogs, not to interact with them. Being in a group class where she is absolutely not allowed to interact with the other dogs and is instead to focus on you in their presence may solve all your problems right there- she'll relax about other dogs because she'll learn they won't approach her. You may have to do something like stay far away from the other dogs, or put a gate up between you and the other dogs, the first few classes. And have you read "control unleashed"?

corvus

Yay! Dove for me!

Hey Becca, this is off topic but just a curious question. Do you think every dog should look to their person whenever they find themselves in a slightly tense situation or one they don't entirely like?  

I do not.  I think most dogs have the tools to figure these things out on their own.  The world we share with companion dogs, does not require a feral-type interaction with it.  Dogs most of the time don't need to make decisions about their world other than, "Stick near my person.  Accept that weird thing as normal.  Alert the household!"  They are the dogs we never hear about. 

Dogs who have issues like the one being discussed here though, in my experience, can benefit most from having a relationship with their human partner in which they trust the human to give them those tools.

ETA:  There's several things I don't like about group classes to address this.  One, there's physcial limits to how far you can get away from the dogs in the class.  Two, the makeup of the class is the one you are stuck with - if there's a dog in the group that she takes a particular dislike to, we'd be forced to jump way forward in difficulty.  Third, one would be tempted to simultaneously work on the things in the class, as well as the problem at hand.  It would be like trying to learn shorthand and Japanese at the same time, when you have a hearing impairment.  We are trying to teach this dog to speak Japanese and she has a hearing impairment.  No need to also require her to learn to write shorthand in that language as well.

Finally, it would be almost impossible for a trainer to keep from meddling when problems arise.  She needs time to progress at her own pace, and setback are a part of her communication to you that you are going to fast.  It's hard for most trainers to see past the actual setback and try to "fix it."  My philosophy, after years of working with dogs like this, is that it's best to say, "Okay, that happened.  Let's back up, refresh her memory on how to deal with this, and then go to that level again." 

Many, many times setbacks are actually extinction bursts.  The ver worst thing you can do when faced with an EB is to swtich up your approach.  But that's what a class trainer would almost certainly suggest, because they don't see the whole picture, only what is going on in  class.  What you do is the same thing:  go back to the level that success can occur, and then like magic at some point the dog will demonstrate 100% competence at the new behavior set.

I might add that I am not against class training.  It's just not a good way to reach competence in the thought patterns and behaviors that these dogs need to deal with the real world. 

brookcove

I might add that I am not against class training.  It's just not a good way to reach competence in the thought patterns and behaviors that these dogs need to deal with the real world. 

Becca,

I see your point about training classes, but in rereading the OP,  I think Sally is ready for training classes.  The last two times she was in situations around other dogs, she was willing to relax and focus on her human and work for her.  While she is not yet comfortable around strange dogs, it does not sound like she is obsessing on them and getting her around other dogs in a controlled setting while maintaining her focus on her person will allow her to relax even more around other dogs.

While I have not myself trained a reactive dog, I have know several cases where reactive dogs learned to relax and ignore other dogs in a class setting.  I was in several classes with a Malinois who started out very reactive (a genetic thing), his human worked very hard on having him focus on him and allowing him to chill away from the rest of the dogs when he wasn't working.  Every one else kept their dogs away from this dog (for the most part all the dogs kept to themselves).  The last time I saw them was at a trial and they were sitting together about ten feet away from the ring.  The dog was very calm and relaxed, he knew the other dogs were around, but he was not bothered.  Unfortunately, he tore his ACL and retired from agility.  

I'm not saying it's impossible.  It's just not in the spirit of setting her up for success.  I actually did not get the impression that she's ready for class in the sense that all she'd be there to do would be to add that final level - learning new things while also practicing going to her happy place with regards to strange (and possibly annoying) dogs in close proximity.

Sally sounds a lot like Sasha. Attacked previously, and now on the offensive when she needn't be. 

 We have had the best success with Sasha when she was highly obedience trained and exposed to situations slowly. I agree that a group might be too hectic. It depends on the instructor, but I'd guess most groups would be too much.

As our training time slipped, Sasha has gone back to being a punk and posturing (we call it throwing her gang signs). Obviously we never "cured" her issues but they were manageable when we worked with her. Lazy parents = backsliding.

I only allow Sasha to socialize with dogs I know are slow to react. If a dog can stay mellow while Sasha postures and says "You want a part of me? Eh?" then Sasha calms down and is ok. Unfortunately her reactions create reactions in many other dogs. Oy.