UPDATE - Dog's safety or neighbour's sanity?

Allowing neighbors to come play or walk with them could cause them to bark more.If they are rewarded for barking with attention.I hope you can find a workable solution.

Tena

Could Penny be barking to get away, so to speak, from Kivi?  I should know from reading your posts but can't remember if they are good friends.  Maybe he is annoying her too much and she is seeking relief?  Maybe you could test the theory, if you think it is at all possible, by leaving Kivi in the house and Penny outside for a few days. 

Right, 4 Hand! Which is another reason to try to combat the barking another way.

 Jackie, I think that could be a contributing factor. Sometimes Kivi wants to play with Penny and she doesn't want to so they stand there barking at each other. Another reason to try them separated again. Penny often kicks him off whatever he's playing with or eating as well, and that makes him bark at her, and she barks back. I originally figured that if I flooded them with things they'd have nothing to bark about, but of course they are like children and they always want whatever the other one has.

They are not really nuisance barkers. Penny is vocal, but always barks for a reason. She's never been one to bark for boredom and she's been in situations before where she had far fewer excursions out of the backyard, a smaller area and no playmates when she was younger. I knew she needed to get out for a bit when she started ripping things up inside of an evening. I know for a fact she wasn't barking then because the neighbours were surprised to discover we had a dog and later wrote us a reference for Penny.

Kivi doesn't bark much either. Just when he's frustrated. This morning he barked a bit right after his walk. He woke up full of beans this morning. He hasn't had an off-lead run for a few days, so I think he's ready for one. He was trying to get Penny to play in the rain with him and she was telling him he's stupid. He gave up pretty quickly and went to sleep instead.

I don't regret getting a puppy, but never again am I pairing a puppy with a senior. Thanks for all the suggestions, guys. We will keep trying things. The neighbours are being pretty nice and helpful about it at least.
 

corvus

never again am I pairing a puppy with a senior

HAHA! This is just what's going on at my houseOur pup is now nine months and I feel I could trust her out of crate when we're gone but I know she would pester Jewel endlessly so I crate her.

Tena

Do you guys own your house?

One of our old neighbors had a bazillion little dogs but no door from her house leading to the back yard, so she had a doggie door installed in the outside wall of her house with a little ramp going down from it to the yard.

I have no idea whether that would be an option with your set-up or if you'd even want to do that, but that way they would have access to the safer yard and the house if they wanted.... 

 Despite your wish to the contrary, the dogs might actually be happier inside.  Dogs bark for various reasons, not the least of which is anxiety.  Some dogs are nervous at being left outdoors, and bark at every noise.  I'd be more worried about an exasperated neighbor hurting my dogs if I ignored their complaint than I would about the dogs' sanity, which would probably not be at issue if they got enough exercise prior to being left.  If my stockdog Aussie can survive on a good 1/2 hour of frisbee games, then probably your dogs could get along with some early morning activity, too.  Most dogs that are left inside just go to sleep after the first twenty minutes.  You know, it might be worthwhile to give it a try and tape their indoor activity to see how they fare.

if the issue is no access to the rest of the yard, can you put like a tunnel in through the fence?

We were planning on taking the window out of the back bedroom and replacing it with a glass door and a verrandah to give us access to the safe yard from the house (we own). I think that would make it infinitely more attractive to Penny. Kivi doesn't mind it out there as he's been there since we got him. He'd prefer to be on the deck, though.

It was raining most of the day and I left the door open and the gate open. Penny spent most of the day sleeping inside or on the deck. Kivi spent half the morning playing in the rain (quietly, thankfully) and for the rest of the time slept outside. There wasn't much noise today except when Penny took Kivi's everlasting treat ball and Kivi couldn't find the other one. Problem solved when I showed him where it was. And this evening when Kivi somehow got a plastic bag twisted around his foot while he was under the deck and got frightened. I guess bad things CAN happen in the yard! Although where that bag came form is anyone's guess.

The tunnel is a good idea. I don't think we could do it, but maybe I can find some of that portable pool fencing. Another problem with inside is that the rabbit has just moved into the kitchen where the dogs go when they come inside. She's great with the dogs, but Kivi sometimes starts poking her when he gets bored. We could move her into another room, but then we'd have a difficult mess to clean out of the shagpile carpet. Whoever invented shagpile carpet didn't have pets! I suppose I could move her back out onto the deck, but one of the reasons we brought her in was because of mosquitos and myxo. Arg! So many problems!

On the plus side, the neighbour dropped by last night with a peace offering of lamb chops and gave the dogs cuddles. She seemed optimistic that we could solve the problem together. I think I misjudged her.  

corvus

It was raining most of the day and I left the door open and the gate open. Penny spent most of the day sleeping inside or on the deck. Kivi spent half the morning playing in the rain (quietly, thankfully) and for the rest of the time slept outside. There wasn't much noise today except when Penny took Kivi's everlasting treat ball and Kivi couldn't find the other one. Problem solved when I showed him where it was. And this evening when Kivi somehow got a plastic bag twisted around his foot while he was under the deck and got frightened. I guess bad things CAN happen in the yard! Although where that bag came form is anyone's guess.

Hopefully you guys will be able to get it worked out.  It's great that you have a neighbor that is being nice about the whole thing--I'm sure that makes it easier. 

Kivi getting his foot caught up reminds me of something Jack did a few months ago.  I had let them out after work and when I called them back in Sally came but no Jack (this is HIGHLY unusual--Jack is usually first to the door).  I called and called and called, searched the yard, and was really starting to get worried.  He wasn't anywhere, and Sally had not barked like she would have if someone had entered the yard and taken him out. 

We have an upper deck that is several feet off the ground and then a lower one that is only probably the height of an average stair step off the ground.  i heard weird noises coming from the lower deck and realized that Jack was stuck *under* the deck.  Sally had dug under there a bit and been sliding in and out of there but she is much smaller than him and he had never before showed any interest in that area.  He had apparently gotten under there using the bigger hole she had dug and tried to come out the smaller hole--which was almost too small for Sally let alone Jack--and got very stuck.  There was nothing I could do but call to him and encourage him towards the hole he could actually make it out of, and that took almost 10 minutes!  I was beginning to think I was going to have to dig him out.... 

Corvus -- everyone's given you good ideas, but I'm going to stand back as one who is married to a non-American and say PART of what we're saying vs. what you're saying is that HERE?  NO WAY would I have a one-of-a-kind dog anywhere outside for any reason when I wasn't there to supervise!!

Why?  Bunchers would have it in a heartbeat!  Yep -- stolen -- FASTER than you can say 'stink'.  Even if they had to kill the other dogs to get it (and they'd just capture them and sell them to medical labs). 

Here there is SO much risk -- you can't keep snakes and small predators away, and a fence isn't going to stop a larger predator.  Eagles and owls and osprey will pick up anything under 20 pounds and will kill anything under 50 if they can (they'll snag it and drop it to kill it if nothing else).  But mostly the danger is human predators.

You're incredibly fortunate that your neighbor is trying to be part of the solution -- here that just isn't something you'd find.  I haven't been able to have my dogs "outside" unattended during the day in 15 years.  The city would simply lock them up and take them away.  (and they never were barkers-- all it would take is ONE occurrence -- that's all! They cite you and next time they'll pick them up).

When it comes to a pool it's very dangerous.  Even if they have training sessions if they happen to knock their head on their way in or if they panic and become disoriented, first it's just incredibly terrifying for them and beyond that it's usually fatal. 

I'm in Florida -- land of the "pools" and HERE it is literally the law that EVERY pool has to have a padlocked fence securely around it.  Not only to keep people living in the house safe, but to prevent animals and children from wandering in.

I know you're way out in the wild but you see it happening ALL the time here.  That's why Erica (who also lives in Florida) is so familiar with the fencing -- down here you just plain gotta have it.  It's literally "the law".

I know you're life is built around wildlife -- but dogs are domesticated and often are less "needy" to be outside than you might think.  The fact that there is all the barking and boredom is indicative of that.

I would most definitely give Penny her own space.  Why not let her be inside?  If she's old enough to be a bit sedentary, she'll simply sleep while you're gone.  That's not a bad thing.  It's what my dogs do every day.

I admit -- 15 years ago I was beyond fuming that I had to bring my dogs inside.  I'd ALWAYS left them out -- I had a *perfect* set up.  I have a separate laundry "building" out back off my patio so they had the perfect place to hang out under cover during inclement weather and I had the whole floor of one end built into dog beds for them.  The yard was fenced and I just didn't see any sense at all in them being restricted to the house.

All it took was one threat of losing them -- ONE bad-tempered neighbor who reported ONE bout of barking.  That's all. 

But now that I've had them inside I would *never* go back to any other way.  No poisonous spiders, no poisonous insects, no snakes, no humans taunting them, no inadvertent accidents.  I used to think I was dong the 'best' by having them be 'free'.  But I began to understand that freedom was more MY value than theirs. 

Hmmm. You have given me a bit to think about, Callie. The pool does bother me. Quite a lot. Even given Penny is a confident swimmer and I know she can get out, and that she's sensible and doesn't try to get in the pool. We know she's fallen in once and talking to the pool man recently he told us she fell in when he was there one day. It gives me the willies thinking what could happen. After Penny fell in the first time, we had her inside for a few weeks. I put her out again when she started showing great reluctance to come inside and would try to sneak out as we were leaving. I felt there was a point where my fears were impacting on her quality of life unacceptably. But maybe her reluctance had more to do with her knowing we were about to leave for the day than being inside. 

I had a good talk to a fellow from the council that investigates dog barking. He answered a long and slightly incoherent email by calling me up and explaining what laws guided their decisions and how it could be interpreted in different situations. It really put my mind to rest and he assured me they were all smart people and not robots that just tick boxes and have the same response to every complaint. I was really impressed and grateful.

Today we separated the dogs again. We will keep doing it and check with the neighbours again at the end of the week and see if it has got better. Penny was working on the Kong when I got home at 6, which was a really good sign. I don't know what we can do about the pool. It's an annoying issue. It is illegal to install pools without child-proof fencing, now, but our pool was installed many years ago when it was not illegal and doesn't come under the same laws. We always intended to get it fenced to today's legal standards not just for the dogs but for any children that might visit, but we have been delayed because we wanted glass so as not to completely destroy the outdoor ambience and it's harder to find someone who can do it. I think we should get it happening, but that means I ought to get the palm trees taken down before we do (hate those bloody palm trees!).

You think owning a house is going to make things easier, but it doesn't! 

 Just to update, we have found somewhat of a solution. At the moment, Penny is getting access to the pool yard and the house of a day and KT is in the backyard. The treats in bottles and Kongs are generally keeping them happy enough. I've been home a bit lately and they are just sleeping all day. Penny is happy to spend most of the day inside now that she has the option to go out if she wants to. Before she was getting to dislike going inside, knowing she would be stuck there all day. She's nearly always there when I come home, now. It's not perfect as she could still end up in the pool if she's not careful, but at least the barking has stopped and the neighbours seem happy. And I know for sure the dogs are not bored or under-exercised. They are indeed sleeping most of the day. And I think Penny is spending most of her time away from the pool anyway. I'm going to look into a hard cover that they can actually walk on. Or more pool fencing. Or both.

 Penny - tell your human to get you one of these:

http://www.piginmud.com.au/joomla/skamper-ramps/skamper-ramp-smaller-dogs.html

The only way I would ever consider letting pet dogs spend time outside without a human somewhere around to supervise is if we had a very securely fenced area, meaning a roof, walls, and a padlock, and dogs we were 100% certain weren't going to bark their heads off all day. We have huge coyotes that eat dogs, really brainless poachers wandering around with guns, and who knows what else. It's totally illegal here to have a pool that's not securely fenced because anything and everything including kids would end up drowned and dead in it. I have set up video cameras of dogs inside, and properly cared for dogs really do happily sleep all day and all night. Like the vast majority of animals they are naturally active at dawn and dusk and that's it. Dogs left outside don't have anything to do; what do you expect them to do besides bark and dig holes? some dogs play together, but your senior dog is not going to be into that for very long.

 I would be a nervous wreck if Tootsie had access to a pool, with no supervision. Not to mention if she fell in and drowned.