Flight versus fight

    • Gold Top Dog

    Flight versus fight

    Liesje

    Also I think for certain dogs it is downright dangerous for the human to correct a dog's correction.  As I said, I do not correct Kenya showing teeth.  She never, ever growls.  Showing teeth is basically her growl and it means "please stop" and is usually accompanied by her ignoring or trying to get away from whatever made her uncomfortable.  Every trainer, GSD fancier, and behaviorist I've talked to has told me NOT to correct this because if I squash it out of her, she might reach a threshold and go straight to a bite. 

    The quote is from the "Letting dogs *work it out*" thread and I found the above statement very interesting as I strive to change all my fosters that get into a dispute to "ignoring or trying to get away from whatever made her uncomfortable", just like Kenya but only in content of dog disputes.  Current training protocals are successful in changing the threshold, the tolerance level.  But, I think like with Cakana's dogs, once the tolerance level is reached the dogs regresses and the owner doesn't realize that the training protocals has to start all over. 

    I think with regards to the statement about correcting warning signals, the "Every Trainer, GSD fancier, and Behaviorist" think too highly of their abilities to change any or all natural dog behavior.  Its like trying to change the stiff tail or a tucked tail of the dog.  Here is what I see with regards to vocalizing when there is a dispute.  The dog will give an extended low rumbling growl and stiffen up with eyes squarely fixed on the other dog face.  If the other dog does not do a turn away, then the dog will give a loud roar of a growl and lunge.  If the other dog is not quick enough to turn away then contact is made and retaliation occurs and then you have a dog fight.  Quick reacting experienced dog owners will answer the dog's growl and stop the escalation but the dispute is not resolved.  The growl will always be there and the dog wants to get out of the situation and wants the situation resolved.  The growl is intended to instruct the other dog to flight versus fight.

    So how do you think the dog owner should help the dog understand that flight, or walking away is the best resolve?  Totally unintentional on my part, it seems that when I interject fear into the two fighting dogs, sending them scampering in opposite direction that makes the fighting experience unpleasant and then the dogs avoid it and find a way to get along.  Yesterday, at the foster dog showing there was male Border Collie and an unneutered Basset-Pittie mix that met and there meeting escalated into aggession.  The handlers were quick to pull back the dogs before contact was made but they kept eyeing and posturing each other throughout the show.  Their behavior affected the other dogs by the other dogs becoming aggressive.  Since there was no resolve to the situation, the situation continued but managed.....and that is not acceptable to me.

     

    • Gold Top Dog

    DPU

    So how do you think the dog owner should help the dog understand that flight, or walking away is the best resolve? 

     

    Good question....I don't know.  Thus far, I am lucky that both of my dogs do this on their own.  Twice at GSD club, a young dog that has been having some escalating issues with being aggressive to other dogs has charged at Kenya.  Both times she just gave the dog a look, calmly turned her head and took a few steps away.  I don't know if that even qualifies as "fight or flight" b/c in those situations I don't think Kenya felt threatened enough to even be afraid.  The same dog charged another dog last time I was there.  Coke was in another part of the room but he saw it and from then on he totally avoids the offending dog.  Unlike Kenya who is just not bothered by the squabbles of other dogs, Coke sees any sort of conflict and avoids those dogs completely.  Again, he won't put himself in a position to become afraid enough to have to fight or run.

    I think the key is - what is the threshold where the dog is scared enough to think "fight or flight"?  I don't think it's useful to change the reaction of the dog (ie showing teeth, growling, air snapping, running away with tail tucked...) and while of course I have not talked to ALL behaviorists and trainers, the ones I HAVE talked to agree.  What purpose is there for trying to control your dog's reaction?  To me the key is identifying the threshold and trying to change THAT.  Like say we've got a dog that's afraid of kids.  Instead of correcting the dog for growling at or running from kids, why not work on making kids a more enjoyable experience for the dog, something that is no longer scary?  When I got Kenya she was terrified of men and DH.  I did not correct her for being afraid, nor did I intervene and coddle her fear.  Instead, we have worked hard at making men and DH a neutral thing.  We have pushed back the threshold of what instigates a fight or flight response.  She took the ATTS test where a very large man was wearing strange clothing, yelling at her, and pounding the ground with a stick.  She remained alert but had no fearful reaction.

    With regard to the other thread, the reason why I've never intervened is simply because I've only ever had to once.  I agree that when one dog gives a signal like teeth or a low growl, there's a few seconds where both dogs make a choice.  My dogs are playing and interacting with other people's dogs all the time, and only once has this situation took the turn of neither dog backing down (with Coke and Samson, where we stepped in and moved the dogs apart for a time-out).  Again, I don't think there's anything that I *do* differently, it's just that I'm lucky enough to have dogs that can effectively give or read these warning signals and there is no escalation.

    As for the BC Basset mix altercation and allowing those dogs to continue making visual threats, I agree, that was not a solution.  Personally, if a dog is aggressive towards my dog and continuously locking eyes or posturing at my dog, I will just remove my dog.  There are enough well socialized dogs out there that we can play with.  I don't have the time or the resolve to do behavior experiments on my dogs.  I don't say anything to the other owner, because I have not and choose not to deal with dog-aggressive dogs so I don't have any sound advice to give, I just remove my dog from the situation and find another dog to play with.

    • Gold Top Dog
    Following are excerpts from a recent PetLife article (part 1), a summary of a video program from trainer Ian Dunbar (part 2), and quick tips for avoiding and stopping fights between dogs (parts 3 and 4).

    1. From "Ready to Rumble" by Cherie Langlois in the February 2003 issue of PetLife:

    While some breeds developed for fighting or protection may be more included to quarrel, dogs of any breed can get into fights. "It depends more on the dog's temperament, training and socialization," said trainer Adam Katz of Austin, Texas, owner of www.Dogproblems.com. A dog who is not well-socialized might have dominant body language and stare other dogs right in the eyes, which is perceived as a direct challenge.

    It's a mistake to assume your dog won't fight. "The issue isn't whether your dog is or isn't nice; it's how the two dogs' temperaments interrelate," Katz said.

    Said Trish King, animal behavior and training director for the Marin (California) Humane Society: "These dogs aren't necessarily aggressive when they're off leash, but tend to lunge, bark and posture when they are on leash."

    Avoid scary conflicts by staying alert and keeping your dog under a short leash and voice control at all times. Some owners take the additional step of not allowing their dog to look or sniff at another dog.

    Teaching a dog early on that he can't visit with every canine he meets is one good way owners can prevent leash aggression. Teach the dog not to pull on the leash, and to sit and wait for permission before greeting another dog. Basic obedience training and behavior modification with positive reinforcement can help prevent fights. Katz said, "If the dog is looking at me and paying attention, he canUt engage another dog."

    Along with leashing and good training, owners can avoid conflicts by keeping their pets from roaming, neutering young dogs before one year of age, and socializing their dogs during the critical puppyhood stage between six to eight weeks of age.

    Some fights occur with little warning, but often you can spot behaviors that signal trouble ahead, so use that opportunity to keep a fight from breaking out.

    Watch for these behavioral cues to see if a fight is imminent:

    * A hard, unwavering, targeted stare.
    * Dominance posturing, such as mounting.
    * Stiff body movements.
    * Extreme body language: the tail held stiffly up or down, lips pulled tight against the teeth.

    When facing an oncoming aggressive dog, you might shout "NO!" to repel him. If the dog continues to approach, drastic measures may be needed. Katz suggests owners carry a stun gun, which they should aim into the air, not at the dog. The stun gun hits sound frequencies that dogs hear, which can stop a dog from fighting. Another technique is to spray cayenne pepper at the dog's nose and eyes (however, pepper spray can cause injury and further anger an aggressive dog). King prefers a harmless citronella spray repellent called Direct Stop.

    If a fight ensues, keep in mind that dogs tend to establish a social hierarchy soon after they meet. Scuffles to determine top dog can involve heavy barking and growling. However, real fights can take place, in which a dog latches onto another dog or otherwise injures him. Intense fights can be silent.

    If you intervene, do not put your hands anywhere near the dogs' heads or get between them to avoid getting bitten yourself. If another person is available, King recommends each person picks a dog and grabs its tail or hind legs, pulling back and up until the dog loosens its grip. The grabber should then move away quickly. There is some risk, since dogs will sometimes turn and bite whoever is hanging on to them.

    Prevention, of course, is the best approach. "Prevention -- keeping your dog safe and providing good leadership -- is the most important job a dog owner has," said King.

    2. From Dr. Dunbar's Video "Dog Aggression: Fighting":

    Dogs react fast, and sometimes get angry toward each other, just like people. The difference is that dogs respond immediately then, typically, forget about it once the disagreement is resolved.

    Some 90% of a puppyUs time is spent biting other puppies. This is part of developing bite inhibition, in which young dogs learn how to control their jaws. The optimal time for dogs to develop bite inhibition is between two and four and a half months of age. Dogs need free play as puppies with puppies and mother dog to develop their bite inhibition. (See last week's Tip on Bite Inhibition, which is posted on the PAW website under Pet Tips.)

    Dunbar cites some general principles:

    * Dogs initiate fighting when they do not feel secure around other dogs.

    * The top dog knows he's boss and usually is able assert rank within 3 seconds. Usually, the top dog does not have to resort to actual fighting to prove his point.

    * Middle-ranking order male dogs feel insecure and in need of proving something.

    * Females have the potential to engage in fights, and to be as tenacious as males. When females fight with female or male dogs, often it's to gain a possession.

    * Dogs perceive neutered dogs as less of a threat. With male dogs, neutering reduces the chances dogs will bite and neutering is linked with a reduction in several kinds of aggression.

    * Dogs may also display aggression to dogs who approach them outside, especially when their owner gets tense in the presence of other dogs and yanks on the dog's collar. For example, the dog may be communicating to the other dog: "Go away! When dogs like you appear, my owner gets upset and gives me a punishment."

    * Dogs growl at younger dogs in an attempt to put youngsters in their place. By the way, many male dogs have testosterone peaks between 10 months and one year of age, explaining why they seem more hyper. Dogs can smell testosterone.

    * When dogs growl at younger dogs, this leads to the development of active appeasement on the part of the lower-ranking dog. The lower-ranking dog learns to show deference, which signals that he understands and respects the hierarchy. So then, typically, the older/more dominant dog will let the youngster play.

    * Playing is more than having fun for dogs; it's a way to compete and a way to establish rank.

    Positive steps you can take:

    * Socialize your pup. You can keep him nearby when you're home by tethering him to you with a leash. Praise the dog whenever he does good, and whenever he stops aggressive look or other undesirable behavior.

    * Most people ignore good behavior. But it is important to praise and reward good behavior in order to encourage the dog to repeat it. Solicit and praise good behavior, instead of punishing the bad.

    * Dunbar suggests teaching the command, "GENTLY," which can be useful in diverting dogs from a fight. "SIT" and "OFF" are also important commands. It is important to be able to redirect your dog's attention to you -- and thus away from another dog who may be engaging in challenging eye contact and aggressive or otherwise undesirable behaviors.

    * Do not tense up with the leash or yell during the approach of another dog. That can make your dog associate the sight of another dog with punishment.

    * Remember that timing is everything, and that it is crucial for you to develop the ability to redirect your dogUs attention back to you.

    By the way, Dunbar cautions against using tranquilizers, which affect bite inhibition (a learned behavior). You want the dog to be able to inhibit his own bite.

    Some people attend "growl classes" with their aggressive dogs, at which they work on moderating the dogUs reactive behavior. The dogs wear muzzles and the owners keep them on leash until the end of the classes, at which point participants work the dogs off leash. DunbarUs video included footage from a "growl" class.

    3. Tips for avoiding fights:

    * Behavior modification work with your dogs is essential. Be sure to watch for next week's tip, "Aggression Between Dogs in the Same Household."

    * Never allow any dog to achieve dominant status over any adult or child. If dogs always know their social ranking and are never allowed to challenge people, they will usually be good family members, advises Gary L. Clemons, DVM.

    * Feed dogs in separate areas, rooms or in their own crates.

    * Do not toss treats out to dogs. Instead, have each dog obey a command, such as sit, individually, and give the treat right after he/she obeys.

    * If any chance dogs will fight over toys, don't give the dogs toys unless they are in separate locations.

    * Do not give dogs toys that fanatically excite them.

    * Carry a small, automatic umbrella. You can pop this open between your dog and an incoming one of you fear a problem. It provides a surprise and a hiding place.

    * Some dog handlers carry water pistols and water cannons.

    * One Great Dane owner uses a cookie sheet to deter dogs from engaging in a fight. She has slipped the pan between the aggressing dogs, as well as banged on it to create a distracting noise.

    * One multiple dog owner always keeps a sturdy buckle collar on the dogs, which provides a sturdy handle if needed.

    * Don't permit tug-of-war or aggressive wrestling. These games can quickly escalate into a fight.

    * Don't give dogs rawhides, pig hooves or other highly coveted goodies. At the very least, don't allow dogs free access to them. The dogs are likely to fight over them.

    4. Ideas for breaking up a fight:

    The way fighting dogs should be separated depends on the individual dogs as well as their typical breed characteristics. For example, pit bull specialists advise use of a strong "breaking stick" inserted into the mouth of bull-breed dogs, but not for other kinds of dogs.

    Be aware that a dog embroiled in a fight might bite someone who grabs him or who comes between the fighting dogs.

    * Try pouring water over fighting dogs. Turning a hose on the dogs works better than dumping a container on them.

    * Some dogs will stop fighting if you squirt them with a water bottle filled with vinegar, which breaks their concentration. Some folks use water cannons, citronella spray, pepper spray (note: pepper spray, or mace, can cause injury and worsen the situation), airhorns or even stun guns.

    * Avoid putting your hands near the dogs' heads or getting between them to avoid getting bitten yourself. If another person is available, Trish King recommends each person picks a dog and grabs its tail or hind legs, pulling back and up until the dog loosens its grip. The grabber should then move away quickly. There is some risk, since dogs will sometimes turn and bite whoever is hanging on to them.

    Another technique for breaking up a fight when two person are available: One person attempts to immobilize the hindquarters of the dog while grasping the collar from behind. For certain breeds such as pit bull breeds, it is recommended to wedge a wedge-shaped breaking stick into the side of the dog's mouth. Before attempting this, study up on the information about breaking up dog fights on www.pbrc.net.

    • Gold Top Dog
    When confronted with a threat, a dog’s psychology and physiology dictates that he or she will either flee from the danger (“flight”) or confront it (“fight”). Because tethered dogs have no ability to flee and escape from danger, they must resort to aggression and attacks.

    The natural fight or flight response afforded to most animals in most stressful situations is denied to a dog on leashed. The dog is cognizant of the fact that he can only retreat the length of the chain and will often opt to ‘stand his ground. Removing the option of flight for any animal will always increase the chance of a physical encounter (or fight response) to a perceived threat.  I don’t allow River or any of my dogs to interact with strange dogs on leash.  If my dogs are free and a growling thingy occurs between my resident dogs I allow it and allow them to work it out.  If we are with other dogs and one of my dogs growling begins I call my dogs to me and divert the situation (providing flight option on my terms) – if I think the dogs will encounter that again I will not allow interaction between those two dogs, either by sitting them next to me or removing them. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    I have some simple rules and not one of my dogs has ever engaged in a serious fight either with a household dog or someone elses dog:

    socialize your puppy extensively so he understands doggy body language and has good bite inhibition

    let the adult dogs firmly discipline the puppy when he hits the adolescent period

    never let your leashed dog interact with another leashed dog- teach your dog to act like a human child, as in, we do not talk to strangers and we pass them on the street friendly but with no direct interaction

    feed dogs separately

    play and train with dogs separately- no toys or food or chewies with ownership unclear to trigger disputes

    do pre-emptive resource guarding training

    put a good solid recall on your dog and do not ever let your dog go running up to strange dogs or people see comment above about "we do not talk to strangers"

    if a loose strange dog runs up to you and your dogs relax and give off "happy vibes" instead of "oh no what might happen" vibes

    it's usually best to avoid public "mosh pit" dog parks

    there's no reason why the random public has to be allowed to pet your dog

    it's ok to be extremely rude to irresponsible dog owners/random public who try to violate your dog rules

    • Gold Top Dog

    It's not "flight versus fight" - these are two different behaviors which occur in the same part of the brain.  When my dog is confronted by an aggressive dog, I want him or her to do neither fight nor flight.  Both of these behaviors are unthinking reactions. 

    What I want is for the dog to think and offer appeasement or leadership behaviors.  And even highly dominant dogs use appeasement to defuse charged situations.  The key is building confidence in your dog.  As mudpuppy said, early socialiation is good.  Exposing young dogs or dogs that have not been socialized properly, or dogs that are lacking in something naturally, to very confident dogs with sound temperaments, is a great tool to have available.  I didn't have that for many years, and now I do - Zhi is a tremendous help in evaluating and helping increase the confidence of temperamentally unsound dogs.

    From Zhi I take her method of improving the social skills of dogs with issues.  Zhi quickly figures out what a particular dog wants most, then gives it to them until that dog is practically worshipping her.  Then, if the dog steps over the line, she witholds her favor.  It's incredibly effective.  Since the ball is entirely in the dog's court, he or she learns to think through things that bother them, instead of just reacting. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    mudpuppy

    I have some simple rules and not one of my dogs has ever engaged in a serious fight either with a household dog or someone elses dog:

    socialize your puppy extensively so he understands doggy body language and has good bite inhibition

    let the adult dogs firmly discipline the puppy when he hits the adolescent period

    never let your leashed dog interact with another leashed dog- teach your dog to act like a human child, as in, we do not talk to strangers and we pass them on the street friendly but with no direct interaction

    feed dogs separately

    play and train with dogs separately- no toys or food or chewies with ownership unclear to trigger disputes

    do pre-emptive resource guarding training

    put a good solid recall on your dog and do not ever let your dog go running up to strange dogs or people see comment above about "we do not talk to strangers"

    if a loose strange dog runs up to you and your dogs relax and give off "happy vibes" instead of "oh no what might happen" vibes

    it's usually best to avoid public "mosh pit" dog parks

    there's no reason why the random public has to be allowed to pet your dog

    it's ok to be extremely rude to irresponsible dog owners/random public who try to violate your dog rules

     

     

    I think people should cut this one out and pin it to their fridge doors!!!  I would add that if your young dog is the one that an older dog disciplines, suck it up and thank your lucky stars that the old dog was there to do you the favor!  I will be forever grateful to Dancer for convincing Sequoyah that the world did not revolve around her 10 week old butt, and she showed deference to Dancer till the day she died.  Now, Sequoyah is often the dog that lets the pups know, at our play groups, that the sun doesn't shine on them all the time either.

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    I think people should cut this one out and pin it to their fridge doors!!!  I would add that if your young dog is the one that an older dog disciplines, suck it up and thank your lucky stars that the old dog was there to do you the favor! 

    I totally agree and I can only surmise that perhaps Sassy was beyond the stage of accepting an older dog's attempts to discipline. It was so strange/foreign to us and we probably handled it all wrong and very well may have contributed to the ongoing and escalating problem. Buffy, who was 7 when we brought Sassy home, had gotten along so perfectly with our male lab, that we never expected a problem. It had been about a year since Jake's passing before we rescued Sassy. Buffy had been somewhat submissive to Jake, but she clearly wasn't going to be submissive to this new dog. Sassy was estimated to be about 2 and had tons of attitude. They seemed to get along great for a couple months and then the first fight was when they were both vying for attention from DH. It wasn't a bad fight but they did go after each other and even then, there was no vocalization or warnings (that were obvious to us). From there, they escalated and grew more frequent. I honestly never saw an opportunity to let the work it out but if I had, I agree that it would've been the best thing. After several visits to the vet for wounds and advice from the behaviorist that each fight lowered the threshold for continued fighting, we just decided to be proactive and not reactive.

    • Gold Top Dog

    Liesje
    Every trainer, GSD fancier, and behaviorist I've talked to has told me NOT to correct this because if I squash it out of her, she might reach a threshold and go straight to a bite.

     

    That would be poor human psychology applied to dogs

    If a person likes to fight people and gets arrested for it, should the person start killing instead? of course not, the person will stop fighting because was told not to

    As i have said MILLIONS of times before, when you correct a growl on a dog you are correcting the WHOLE behavior, NOT only the sound; there are ALWAYS signs before a bite, the body language does not lie

    I like my dog to AVOID, if a dog is aggressive my dog ignores it, there is not gain on showing who's the best or not, that dog does not belong to our pack so there is not difference, if a dog could belong to our pack i am the only one who set the rules for others and from very early they are taught to respect personal space and property

    • Gold Top Dog

    cakana

    spiritdogs
    I think people should cut this one out and pin it to their fridge doors!!!  I would add that if your young dog is the one that an older dog disciplines, suck it up and thank your lucky stars that the old dog was there to do you the favor! 

    I totally agree and I can only surmise that perhaps Sassy was beyond the stage of accepting an older dog's attempts to discipline. It was so strange/foreign to us and we probably handled it all wrong and very well may have contributed to the ongoing and escalating problem. Buffy, who was 7 when we brought Sassy home, had gotten along so perfectly with our male lab, that we never expected a problem. It had been about a year since Jake's passing before we rescued Sassy. Buffy had been somewhat submissive to Jake, but she clearly wasn't going to be submissive to this new dog. Sassy was estimated to be about 2 and had tons of attitude. They seemed to get along great for a couple months and then the first fight was when they were both vying for attention from DH. It wasn't a bad fight but they did go after each other and even then, there was no vocalization or warnings (that were obvious to us). From there, they escalated and grew more frequent. I honestly never saw an opportunity to let the work it out but if I had, I agree that it would've been the best thing. After several visits to the vet for wounds and advice from the behaviorist that each fight lowered the threshold for continued fighting, we just decided to be proactive and not reactive.

     

    All that happened was that your resident dog was confronted with another female dog at exactly the wrong time in the second dog's development.  At age 2+, they are reaching social maturity, deciding who's who in the group, and the younger dog, being a non-subordinate type, took on the older dog over a resource (your DH).  When that happens, and neither is particularly subordinate, or the humans are not in ultimate control of the household (not saying you weren't, but we all know that happens) it often leads to them really disliking one another.  And, remember, I said let them work it out if there's no blood.  When there is, especially if it's female to female, you often have a different situation that needs a different solution.  Females have been known to kill one another to settle an ongoing rivalry, so it's important not to let it go on without intervention.

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer

    Liesje
    Every trainer, GSD fancier, and behaviorist I've talked to has told me NOT to correct this because if I squash it out of her, she might reach a threshold and go straight to a bite.

     

    That would be poor human psychology applied to dogs

    If a person likes to fight people and gets arrested for it, should the person start killing instead? of course not, the person will stop fighting because was told not to

    As i have said MILLIONS of times before, when you correct a growl on a dog you are correcting the WHOLE behavior, NOT only the sound; there are ALWAYS signs before a bite, the body language does not lie

    I like my dog to AVOID, if a dog is aggressive my dog ignores it, there is not gain on showing who's the best or not, that dog does not belong to our pack so there is not difference, if a dog could belong to our pack i am the only one who set the rules for others and from very early they are taught to respect personal space and property

     

    Dogs are not human, any more than they are still wolves.  Also, many times, humans miss the more subtle signs that a dog will bite, because they aren't quick enough to notice the turned whisker or the slight change in the dog's eye that another dog has no trouble recognizing.  What planet are you living on?  There have been hundreds of instances where people have been suspended from school, given a restraining order, or jailed for violent behavior, and still go on to beat up or kill a victim.   Everyone would prefer that their dogs avoid fights, and if you read Turid Ruugas' books, she attempts to show handlers how to retrain dogs to offer calming signals, but I'm not convinced that will transfer always to off leash scenarios, such as two dogs living under the same roof, with all the opportunities for interaction that occur in most households. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer

    If a person likes to fight people and gets arrested for it, should the person start killing instead? of course not, the person will stop fighting because was told not to

    As i have said MILLIONS of times before, when you correct a growl on a dog you are correcting the WHOLE behavior, NOT only the sound; there are ALWAYS signs before a bite, the body language does not lie

    I like my dog to AVOID, if a dog is aggressive my dog ignores it, there is not gain on showing who's the best or not, that dog does not belong to our pack so there is not difference, if a dog could belong to our pack i am the only one who set the rules for others and from very early they are taught to respect personal space and property

     

    But see in your posts you're jumping right to aggression and fighting.  My dogs have never been in a dog fight, let alone started one.  I avoid aggressive dogs.  I don't let my dogs play with dogs we haven't already met and observed.  If a dog is rude to one of my dogs they both turn their heads and walk away.  Kenya is more forgiving and might give the dog a chance later on, Coke avoids the dog for good.  I've never had to step in and train these behaviors.

    Now if your dogs always progress right from a growl to an aggressive bite, then I guess that is another problem that needs to be addresses.  I've only ever witnessed one actual dog attack (where one dog attacked another aggressively, unprovoked since the dog being attacked was not aware of the other dog) and in that case we stepped in immediately.  Got the hose, grabbed the dogs by their hips.

    So, to go along with your human analogy, if you have two kids and one says to the other "please stop pinching me" are you going to immediately step in and start spanking the kid who asked not to be pinched? 

    And as I said earlier, my dogs don't growl, so I've never even had to decided whether or not to correct it.  If other people's dogs growl, that's their decision.  I do not discipline other people's dogs. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    spiritdogs
    Dogs are not human

     

    Thats why Liesje trainers should not apply poor human psychology on dogs (they dont even apply good human psychology)

    spiritdogs
    Also, many times, humans miss the more subtle signs that a dog will bite

     

    Proving my point that dogs wont go directly for the bite, there are ALWAYS signs before an attack, if humans miss them thats another story

    Liesje
    So, to go along with your human analogy, if you have two kids and one says to the other "please stop pinching me" are you going to immediately step in and start spanking the kid who asked not to be pinched? 

    Good try setting an example were the answer is obvious, do you spank your dog even when he is not being aggressive back? i dont think a dog is asking "please" when he/she is growling or showing the teeth, i think is more something like "or else"

    NOW the correct example using human analogy would be, IF my kid is like "i'm going to punch you right on the face right now for pinching me!!" (please notice that my "kid" is actually now being aggressive) then i stop my "kid" AND address myself the situation with the other "kid" and/or the "parent", if my "kid" is not aggressive then i dont need to stop him but i still adress the situation with the other "kid"

    The repercusions of this on a real kid would fall too much deep inside on human psychology, which is again applied wrongly on dogs with the never ending "i want my dog to step up for himself in the future"

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer

    Good try setting an example were the answer is obvious, do you spank your dog even when he is not being aggressive back?

     

    Sorry I can't really wrap my mind around this.  Neither of my dogs have ever started a fight, been part of a fight, or been attacked in a fight by another dog.  I don't have aggressive dogs, I choose NOT to deal with them, and I don't allow my dogs to interact with aggressive dogs.  I don't know why anyone would correct a dog when it's not being aggressive, that was my point.

    Besides I think "fight vs. flight" applies more to what the dog does under pressure when it is scared, not an aggressive attack among dogs (provoked or not).  Even a bite isn't necessarily and aggressive attack.  My dogs have never bit me or other dogs so I don't really have an example, but once my cat was filthy and I was giving him a bath.  He is terrified of water, so in his panic he sunk ALL of his upper teeth into my arm because I was holding him and he couldn't get away.  That's a "fight vs. flight" example.  The cat was scared.  He chose flight but I was restraining him so he bit.  That is not the same as a cat stalking and attacking another cat.  I deserved that bite and thus the cat was not really corrected for it, being washed was "punishment" enough I'd say.  Poor thing feared for his life!

    So if I ended up with a dog that was a fear biter, I'd focus my energy on desensitizing the dog to whatever made it become fearful.  To simply correct the bite or any signals leading up to the bite doesn't address the problem. 

    • Gold Top Dog

    espencer
    Good try setting an example were the answer is obvious, do you spank your dog even when he is not being aggressive back? i dont think a dog is asking "please" when he/she is growling or showing the teeth, i think is more something like "or else"

     

    That is your opinion only.  You are projecting human emotions onto dogs.  You are assuming that a growl is a hateful thing; and wrong.  In fact, this is a wildly inaccurate assumption.  A growl is just communication, no more, no less.  There are many different kinds of growls, just as there are many different kinds of aggression.

    Great post Liesje.... some kinds of growls are nasty, but in the sense we are talking about (flight or fight) they are fearful. 

    So espence, let's assume you are correct and the dog know he is being punished for the "whole behaviour", not just the growl.  What is the point in punishing the dog for being afraid?  What doe sthat achieve?

    Now I'm scared of spiders.  Say I make an open display of my fear (screaming) and I get "corrected" for it.  It's sure not going to change my feelings on spiders.... the fear will simply manifest itself some other way.   The growl is the dog's open display of fear.... get rid of it and the fear will manifest itself some other way.  In some cases this could be an all out attack to make the thing the dog is scared of go away.

    espencer
    NOW the correct example using human analogy would be, IF my kid is like "i'm going to punch you right on the face right now for pinching me!!"

    If it has got to that point, you have already failed!  The child is bound to have given you MANY signals that he was extremely uncomfortable prior to that point, and losing his ability to cope.  You should have stepped in BEFORE that happened and diffused the situation.  Now, with children, a lecture can be given on how violence does not solve anything, and what the child should have done INSTEAD of threatening to punch the bully.  With dogs, such a lecture is not possible.  So, I believe it is best to chalk it up to experience, and intervene sooner next time, before your dog is forced to make an aggressive display in an attempt to fend off the other dog. 

    Teaching him "watch me" and proofing it to the max is a FANTASTIC tool, because when the dog obeys.... hey presto, he looks away from the other dog.  Sometimes this alone is enough to diffuse the tension and prevent a fight. 

    A correction is completely inappropriate in this kind of "fight or flight" scenario, not least because you are punishing a dog who is already scared.  That seems grossly unfair to me and it is not in me to do it.