Gentle Leader

Most people know my thoughts on shock collars, but despite that I am not so sure a GL is right for your dog either. I'm actually not a huge fan of them, although I have used them and recommended them. It's one of those things where you have to draw your own personal line. To me it's not a question of which one is better - a shock collar or a halter. I just plain would not use a shock collar, but I wouldn't use a halter for every dog either in its place. I do not think they are for every dog, and I think there are some people who overuse them and think that all dogs should use them. If the dog is acting that upset over it, and is likely stressing out, I don't consider it humane or dog-friendly.

I have used them on both of my current girls, I don't use them regularly but they have been acclimated to them, we use a lot at the humane society, and I do recommend them for certain dogs. But there are some personality types that do not take to them very well, and your dog might be one of those dogs. Have you tried a different halter? Some dogs adjust to different halters differently. I know I use a GL for one dog and a Halti for the other as that ended up being the most comfortable for each of them. So that is a possibility.

I feel for you that your trainer insists that you use a head halter, and I feel for your pup who is stressing over it. I do feel that head halter should be acclimated slowly and not just thrown on.

My *huge* concern with the Gentle Leader is the fact that the dog can so easily injure their own neck pulling so hard against them.  I haven't used one since I discovered how easily they can permanently injure themselves.

Kim_MacMillan

I feel for you that your trainer insists that you use a head halter, and I feel for your pup who is stressing over it. I do feel that head halter should be acclimated slowly and not just thrown on.

The trainer knows I had the harness and didn't say a word...she let me try it, then when I told her I figured we would flunk the class ( just joking I hope ) and told her of our problems with walking Gibson....she wanted to try it.  She is not really insisting on it,,,, he was doing okay that day. And still might be...I don't know because I have not talked to a person that didnt say " he'll get used to it!" 

I do believe by putting it on him for "fun" things in the house periodically is kind of acclimating him to it...don't you think?

One problem that I have found ( I THINK ) is that if we don't use it even for a very short walk to the corner to take a pee......he now does his crazy pulling and biting stuff all the time. Whereas before the GL he only did it at certain times. Its almost that now without it, its a "free for all!"

calliecritturs

My *huge* concern with the Gentle Leader is the fact that the dog can so easily injure their own neck pulling so hard against them.  I haven't used one since I discovered how easily they can permanently injure themselves.

Callie.... he does not pull at all with it on. And it sits up high on their neck so as not to hurt the trachea, which is probably the biggest problem with collars...I assume.

Drizzle is in her 10th year now.  She has declined and nerve triggers to her hips muscles are growing weaker.  I am assuming that condition was brought on by neck injuries in her life.  She has a high prey drive and toys and small animals are shaken vigorously.  I am now sensitve to the Great Danes neck for slightest of injury being a collar, GL, or shock collar.  It sounds like you don't have a choice in exercising Gibby but you can take him to a football field, tennis court, or some place where you can start the training of walking nice on a leash.  Teaching a dog to walk nice on a leash starts without a leash.  I have my dogs learn to follow me, watch me, and put them through all sorts of zigzag movements, without a leash.  Then comes the leash and things are much easier.  I am all for teaching a dog first in an control environment with limited distractions and then gradually introducing the distraction.  I also teach my dogs which is the appropiate place to play and rough house.  Outside time, yes, indoors, no.

 The thought that occured to me when I read your post was that the trainer did not have you acclimate your dog very gradually to the GL, which is a colossal mistake.  Most dogs do not want muzzles or head collars on at first, but if they learn slowly to associate the collar with good things, it's much easier.  Some dogs, however, never acclimate to wearing one, and that's ok.  I must tell you that Sequoyah hates a GL, but doesn't mind her Snoot Loop, probably because the straps are not so close to the eye.  So, even a different brand can make a diff.  If you really want to try the GL or any other collar, do yourself a favor and acclimate the dog according to the protocol on the video that is sold separately from the collar.  You should be able to get it at dogwise.com or amazon. 

Stop going with your dog when he pulls, because that's what keeps him doing it!  Instead, stand still (you can brace one leg behind you, and hold the lead with two hands at your belly button) and wait for him to relax the lead by looking back at you or simply backing up.  Then proceed, but stop again if he pulls.  I realize that it can take a long time to do a walk, but if he likes to walk, he'll figure out that the only way to get where he wants to go is to relax that lead.  Once you master the art of not ever allowing yourself to be pulled, things will go better.

http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2002c/llw.htm

Anne...I have a video that came with the GL. The trainer BEGGED me to make sure to watch it. I will do that this weekend. I do'nt even know how to turn on the DVD player...oh man!!!      But I want to watch it with my DH and we have not had a chance before this weekend, because of work and some other events we had to do.

Gibby is not just pulling....he actually walks pretty nice for most of the walk ( before the GL ) just when we see someone he does want to go to....then he wants to get to that person really bad and there is no talking to him. He knows commands...he gets treats all day long for commands....but when he sees people and wants to be petted.....he could care less about the treats...OR the clicker.    He IS Gods gift to people.  LOL!     But on the way home from our walks.... he starts running like an idiot....pulling,,,biting....me or anything..... wrapping his leash around you.....and laying on the ground and frantically eating grass---pulling it out by the roots, like a mad man.   A form of zoomies I suppose. And I do my best to ignore him...distract him or anything to get him to stop.  But now he is doing it even on the way to pee a lot. The GL stops that, I must say.

DPU.... he used to walk right with us...yes...doing zig zags and all...my other dogs always did that. But again...if he sees a person....he is there. He loves people.  He is NOT yet good about WAIT and COME when he wants something else. Yet I do believe that day will come.

But Dave,,,, I do believe that if you live in a place where you have wide open spaces...or even a fenced yard...you have more of an oppertunity to raise a dog without the leash...or even collar for that matter. I lived on 2 acres with my Dane/Shepherd Cindy....the only time she even wore a collar is when we went to the vet. I don't live there now..I live in a small residential neighborhood...I have a farm behind me where the farmer threatens to shoot any dog that come on his property ( and did a couple of years ago when he shot and killed a neighbor shar-pei ) and a bunch of small yappy dogs and little kids...all of which interests the heck out of Gibby.  I want him to get to know them and continue to love them,  if I do that I have to tie him and leave he meet them.  My Cindy lived on our 2 acres and the only people she met were people that came to my house.

dyan

The trainer knows I had the harness and didn't say a word...she let me try it, then when I told her I figured we would flunk the class ( just joking I hope ) and told her of our problems with walking Gibson....she wanted to try it.  She is not really insisting on it,,,, he was doing okay that day. And still might be...I don't know because I have not talked to a person that didnt say " he'll get used to it!" 

 He may eventually stop flipping and frantically trying to remove it (ironic reaction to a tool which claims to be "gentle";) but he probably won't ever get used to it totally. He will probably always act different with it on, paw at his face and/or rub his head.

dyan

I do believe by putting it on him for "fun" things in the house periodically is kind of acclimating him to it...don't you think?

  I can say from experience, no that will not gradually acclimate him to it. You can try a desensitizing program of putting it over his nose and feeding, then strapping it on and feeding. Then have it on for a couple seconds while feeding and work your way up.

dyan

One problem that I have found ( I THINK ) is that if we don't use it even for a very short walk to the corner to take a pee......he now does his crazy pulling and biting stuff all the time. Whereas before the GL he only did it at certain times. Its almost that now without it, its a "free for all!"

  GLs do not tend to translate to regular collars at all. Yopu can get your dog to stop pulling with the GL on but if you ever want to walk him without it, you'll have to train him not to pull on a collar.

dyan

calliecritturs

My *huge* concern with the Gentle Leader is the fact that the dog can so easily injure their own neck pulling so hard against them.  I haven't used one since I discovered how easily they can permanently injure themselves.

Callie.... he does not pull at all with it on. And it sits up high on their neck so as not to hurt the trachea, which is probably the biggest problem with collars...I assume.

 If they hit against the GL hard they can certainly injure their necks. They can injure themselves from straining against it which some begin to do after awhile. A big concern with neck injury is also what you found to be "comical" about your dog's reaction to the GL:

"Now when we go for walks...Gibby does sommersaults. Yes,,,head over heel sommersaults. In addition to rolling over on this side.  He is quite comical I have to admit.  Especially the head over heel sommersault.   To see those big white legs flopping in the air as he is turning over..... but he does look like he could break his neck doing it."

 I wonder what people's reactions would be if the tool in question was a shock collar and a poster made the above statement? Or any other trainiong tool or method?

 I'd suggest reading this article:

http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html

I read the article...and I guess it confirms my thoughts..... ( not what you want to hear ) that the shock collar is safer and less stressful on the dog.  WONDERFUL!  Part of the article talks about the head snappings sideways...I just watched the DVD and your not supposed to snap the head anyway.....side or not. 

I have alwasy hated the look of the GL. Actually I have always hated the feel of the look. My first attention to it was when my son got Ollie and his friend got a St. Bernard that needed it... .Mike said the dog HATED it and it was awful. So I always assumed it was hateful.  But many people that come to our clinic have them...my Dr says all of her dogs ( mainly PBs and  Dobies ) walk with them. And Gibbys POSITIVE trainer suggested it.

One thing I don't like...reading that article..I'm getting some sick feelings.  For some reason it made me feel like my dog has no respect for me... like I am not doing what I should be doing.. or whatever the resentful feeling that I felt while reading it.   If I keep him home and don't walk him.... we have no problem with him.  Is that what I am to do?  We don't really have that big of a problem with him when we walk him except for on the way home...but because he is going to be so big and strong.... we are trying to teach him.   So now...that I am totally and utterly confused about what to do...... I feel like giving up.   I haven't been to a obedience class for a long time..things have changed from when I did, such as the old choke chain and jerk and heel. This class is all treats...dont' upset the dog... etc etc etc.......   Gentle Leader...the nice way to go ( not the shock collar----THATS mean and harmful ) and now this is not good either. My dog must respect me to train him...what the heck. Don't yell at him...don't make him feel bad,,,don't hurt him,,,, always train with treat and positive thoughts and talk,.....and in the end "your dog don't respect you???"  I think I give up! I feel like this is the same conversation as kids.... be nice to them... respect them... never spank or scold them.........and our kids are turning out to be worse than they were back when I was a kid.    HHHHmmmm! 

AgileGSD

I can say from experience, no that will not gradually acclimate him to it. You can try a desensitizing program of putting it over his nose and feeding, then strapping it on and feeding. Then have it on for a couple seconds while feeding and work your way up.

So when it was mentioned that I am to acclimate him to it...you are saying you can not acclimate him to it, only desensitize him to it??

AgileGSD

GLs do not tend to translate to regular collars at all. Yopu can get your dog to stop pulling with the GL on but if you ever want to walk him without it, you'll have to train him not to pull on a collar.

I thought this is what I was doing!

dyan

Gibby is not just pulling....he actually walks pretty nice for most of the walk ( before the GL ) just when we see someone he does want to go to....then he wants to get to that person really bad and there is no talking to him.

That's how my older dog Buffy is and the very first time I took her for a walk with the GL, she saw a family with young children and seemed to forget about the GL. She did the same thing you described. She hit the end, flipped over and was confused and panicked by what was happening. I was mortified and have never used it on her again. It worked well for Sassy but then we realized that Sassy actually walks well without it, so I've never really had to use it.

Hopefully the instructor can help with teaching Gibby to walk nicely without the use of a GL. I know it's possible because someone did it with Sassy and I see people all over my neighborhood with well-mannered dogs. I think it just takes a lot of time and effort but the payoff is huge. Up until Sassy, I'd never had a dog who didn't pull my arm out of the socket on walks and the difference is amazing.

cakana

dyan

Gibby is not just pulling....he actually walks pretty nice for most of the walk ( before the GL ) just when we see someone he does want to go to....then he wants to get to that person really bad and there is no talking to him.

That's how my older dog Buffy is and the very first time I took her for a walk with the GL, she saw a family with young children and seemed to forget about the GL. She did the same thing you described. She hit the end, flipped over and was confused and panicked by what was happening.

Cathy,,,when I said that Gibby walked pretty good during most of the walk until he saw someone.... or on the way home when he got too excited... then he pulls a lot, that was before the GL.     Since the GL he hasn't seen anyone or pulled to get to them yet..its been raining so no one is out. He is doing his sommersaults just trying to get it off....not as he is pulling.      He rolling around..doing sommersaults...and pawing at the thing to get it off.

We just got home from a walk. My DH was hold the leash and I had the treats.    He didn't do one sommersault or roll...he did try to  get it off with his paw a few times.... and a few times he almost killed me by trying to rub his face into my leg while I was walking..... tripping me. What a dog!  I'm not throwing away the receipt to the thing thats for sure!

dyan

Cathy,,,when I said that Gibby walked pretty good during most of the walk until he saw someone.... or on the way home when he got too excited... then he pulls a lot, that was before the GL.     Since the GL he hasn't seen anyone or pulled to get to them yet..its been raining so no one is out. He is doing his sommersaults just trying to get it off....not as he is pulling.      He rolling around..doing sommersaults...and pawing at the thing to get it off.

Oops, sorry, I completely misunderstood. Then perhaps it is something he will get used to in time. I know one friend who swears by it but she did say her lab took a bit of time before she got used to it and quit pawing at her face. I hope that it works out for you since it seems to have made your walks easier.