Training methods for older dogs

In my experience with fostering, I have never met a dog that could be depicted "set in their ways", which seems to have a negative connotation and something that could be attached to the senior dog by constantly repeating "set in their ways", even if the intentions are good.

You are the one who said this.  I wanted to clarify it for people who may be reading this and think, "Oh, this thread is about training older dogs.  This person says older dogs couldn't or shouldn't be trained because they are set in their ways.  I guess I'll take my older dog who has started objecting to my new baby/husband/adopted child/boyfriend/apartment to the pound."

Your own words follow.

 

If they are seniors they may be settled in their ways and probably by this time don't have any behavior problems.  What is your goal exactly?  Basic Obedience?  Tricks?  If this is a senior dog, you may not want to mess around with its drives or motivations.

Dogs of any age can have problems and not because of their age, necessarily, or because they are "settled in their ways" or because we changed something by asking them to adjust to a new routine.  Dogs change their own drives and motivations. 

PS:  I'm sorry, but your posts are very unpleasant to read and I'm afraid you may be purposely making them that way (ie, gratuitously contentious).  Therefore, I'm going to figure out how to use the "don't show" feature on this forum for you.   

DPU

And my only point is that older dogs, seniors may come to you settled, meaning calm and nonreactive, behavior problem free.  Why disrupt this by making the dog biddable to the human wish.  I am only saying be cautious in your training when introducing a change in the dog's life and be sure you are doing it for the right reasons and the dog is physically able to comply.

How can anyone take the above quote as "unpleasant" and interpet it the way Brookcove does?  To me and probably to the rest of the world, using the word "Settled" has a totally different connotation thant the phrase "Set in their ways".  And I attempted to clarify by saying "meaning calm and nonreactive".  To me "Set in their ways" means stubborn and unyielding.    Don't you see that?  I'm just not getting your beef.

The clicker is for learning new behavior. Eventually, you fade out use of the clicker and reinforcement drops back to varied, as in dro timing, sort of like a slot machine.

As for "having to carry a clicker," it is a burden I will manage in the training of a dog. I manage to carry wallet, keys, cell phone. I just have to accomodate one more thing. They are cheap and you can buy several for anywhere.

What's really important is what you are trying do and the best way to get there.

 

I am so very sorry I have been unable to post for the last day or so. I am interested in the clicker training, but is this the only "method" that is popular here? As for exactly what I want out of my 8 and 9 year old dogs: more obedience, and more control. They have been known to be aggressive to each other on occassion, not often, but they have. Thius can happen when one gets attention and the other doesn't, and we aren't paying attention to their body language, also when they are completely alone and who knows what starts it then. I want to have control of this if and when we add another dog to the mix. The one dog we keep away from people entirely because she has snapped at strangers, and me when she couldn't get to the target person. They don't live in the house with us, they have open kennels in the basement and a dog door to a 2ish acre fenced in yard. I am only looking for the basics, nothing special. And maybe now that my beloved Rottie is no longer with us in the house, maybe i will bring them inside for periods of time. As for the somewhat "hot" discussion, for the record, I have no idea what the abbreviations mean. Thanks for the info so far. Julie

spiritsmom

I have no idea what the abbreviations mean

op = original post or original poster. In this case, you, since you started the thread.

c/t = click and treat. The click happens before giving the treat and a treat always follows a click, forever, amen. As long as you use a clicker at the time of training, a treat follows it. This is an unchanging law of my universe. Once you stop using the clicker, you can vary the time.

DRO= differential reinforcement, as in, sometimes you give a treat, sometimes you don't. Sometimes the treat is a little nugget of whatever, sometimes, it's drippy roast beef.

The clicker is a marker. Your voice can be a marker, a flashlight, a snap of the finger. Whatever it is, it should be a sound that never changes and always means a reward is coming. You use the clicker to mark the successfully completed behavior, such as sit or recall. At the moment the dog plants his butt on the floor or returns to your side or in front of you, you click and then treat. But before you do any of that, you must first associate the click with reward. At first, you will just click and treat for nothing in particular. This links the sound in the dog's mind to reward.

As for changing dog's behavior toward each other, you can, at first, c/t for recalling to you or watching you when they get rowdy. Later, when they happen to be calm around each (for that is also an offered behavior) you can reward that. Yes, you can reward the offered behavior of doing nothing. Such training caused my dog to put up with 3 different charges from a loose Scotty before he barked back. Because the behavior of not reacting was rewarding. And I don't play fair. I have used pork chops, steak, brisket, chicken.

Essentially, you want the dogs to find being calm with each other more rewarding. Part of that would NILIF.

NILIF = nothing in life is free. Your dogs must be well behaved before they get their meal, before they get some privileges. And before someone comes along and says none of that will work, I should let you know that one of our members has 6, count them 6, German Shepherds and has peaceful, orderly meal times thanks to NILIF.

There are sites out there that explain it more fully and better than I can. But it will take some work and some time.

Also, please realize that not all dogs will get along, even if that is what we so wish. They have personalities. And please consider the dynamics of your current situation before you add another dog to the mix. The number of dogs in a group changes the group dynamic.

Also, as a safety concern, human aggression (HA) should not be tolerated in any dog. The best advice for that would be to consult a behaviorist. Not a guy on a t.v. show but a behaviorist, who usually has some credentials and professional experience in dealing with various behaviors that seem aggressive or are aggressive.

spiritsmom

 

I am so very sorry I have been unable to post for the last day or so. I am interested in the clicker training, but is this the only "method" that is popular here? As for exactly what I want out of my 8 and 9 year old dogs: more obedience, and more control. They have been known to be aggressive to each other on occassion, not often, but they have. Thius can happen when one gets attention and the other doesn't, and we aren't paying attention to their body language, also when they are completely alone and who knows what starts it then. I want to have control of this if and when we add another dog to the mix. The one dog we keep away from people entirely because she has snapped at strangers, and me when she couldn't get to the target person. They don't live in the house with us, they have open kennels in the basement and a dog door to a 2ish acre fenced in yard. I am only looking for the basics, nothing special. And maybe now that my beloved Rottie is no longer with us in the house, maybe i will bring them inside for periods of time. As for the somewhat "hot" discussion, for the record, I have no idea what the abbreviations mean. Thanks for the info so far. Julie

 

No, clicker training is not the only method popular here, as you would see if you checked out the meltdowns in our archives LOL.  You don't need to use one if you don't want to.  The object of training as I see it is to ignore behaviors that you don't want the dog to repeat, reward the behaviors you like and do want the dog to repeat, and teach the dog a "no reward marker" to let him know that it's nice he offered a behavior, but it wasn't quite the one you wanted.  A dog that is not too fearful to offer behaviors is one that is easily trained when motivated by a "reinforcer" that he wants.  Training hinges a lot on relationship, and, frankly, dogs that live outdoors or in basements, seldom have the relationship with their handlers that house-raised or genuine outdoor working dogs have.  This is not a situation I would add a third dog to.  You might be asking for trouble.  It's important for any owner of a multiple dog pack to have control over each of the dogs, and if you don't, then don't tamper with the dynamic by adding another character to the cast.  JMHO

I'm finding myself being ever more controversial lately.

I think there is a grain of truth to the older dog being somewhat set in their ways, although not in the stubborn willful meaning. Both my mother and I have tried to teach Penny to pick a side to walk on and stay there. Heavens, we have tried to pick a side for her and encourage her to stay there, but she just insists on zig-zagging all over the place and the moment you try to stop her she'll freeze and glare at you until you relent and let her go where she pleases in the interests of keeping the walk going and having a happy old corgi. You haven't felt the power of the Penny's "Not amused" look. In fact, if I try to hustle her across the road she freezes and gives me the look. And it seems to me she won't change because this is the way it's always been for her. Just as she won't ever do anything but sit first when she thinks she might get food. Force of 12 years of habit. A 12 year habit is a powerful thing.

I think we could probably teach Penny to walk on one side or the other if we used food, but then she'd be planting her butt every two steps and barking every time the treat didn't come when she thought it would and prancing and not really enjoying her walk nearly as much as she would without the food. So we let her do her thing. 

corvus

Force of 12 years of habit. A 12 year habit is a powerful thing.

Reinforced by you allowing it.  The first time she did that, if it was a problem, was the time to disallow it and train another response. Can you traina different response after 12 years? I think so, but it starts with the "want to" and it may have been not enough of an issue for you to worry about. As you point out, Penny can glare at you and that's enough to drop this idea of stopping her crossover pattern.

The op, on the other hand, has dogs that will go at each other, a little more concerning than the walking pattern and needs some ways to calm the dogs down or at least advice on management. And the "futility of training"  sentiment isn't really helping all the much.

Thank you Ron for clarifying the abbreviations. :-) It can make it a little confusing.

I am not apposed to learning about the clicker training. I was just surprised that it was the only one that was mentioned.

I know that it isn't popular for dogs to not live in the house. Our Rottweiler had that place until a couple of weeks ago. Both dogs that are in the basement have spent some time in the house. The pointer prefers the outside although she will tolerate being inside fopr periods of time. She will also sneak off to peepee in a hidden place. So it has just always been easier to let her stay out. And since we are both outside people all year round, they are not left outside alone for 23 1/2 hours a day.

The other mixed breed Bear used to live inside with the Rottie, but she came to us as an adolescent afraid of everything that moved and we have tried to overcome that and have to a certain extent, but she would cower and cry out if you even moved too fast or a plastic bag rattled, and would pee on the floor just a little bit. And the crying out started to trigger the attack mode in the Rottie, so it was easier, and yes if I had brought in the pros we might have overcome all of it, but i didn't, she went outside to live with the other dog. And although she doesn't get to sleep inside with us, she has bloomed into a different dog out from under the fear of the Rottie. She is still afraid of things that for the 8 years she has been with us has never hurt her, but she is so much better. She has a fantastic recall and will come and sit right in front of you, EXCEPT when something has really scared her, then she will hightail it for her kennel.

We have kept the Rottie separate from the pointer for years, and although it has been a chore sometimes, it was worth it for their safety. Now the rottie is gone, and I want to spend as much time as I can making the two we have still into "better" members of the family. I may or may not get another dog, if i do it will live inside, but I want it to be able to associate with the others without there being a melee every time. I have no intention of just throwing another dog into the mix. i don't want to add trouble to a fairly peaceful situation. I also don't want to make it sound like these dogs are hanging on each other's throats. they might jump on each other a few times in a year. Once is too much for me if i am there. I can tell by their body language that if we weren't diligent, it would be more often, and I just feel like that needs to addressed, whether we can watch for it and counteract it or not.

The pointer we keep away from people entirely. I don't like that, but I will not take the chance with her. She has always been like that, and I take the blame for allowing it for the years that i have been around her.

 How far I can get with our dogs, I don't know. I want to try. The training I did with our Rottie was seat of my pants, I had never trained a dog. We went to obedience classes, she loved everyone, and other dogs, then when she was a few years old she got arthritis, and she changed. She got grouchy, started to not tolerate other dogs, and when she started that, I became worried about how she would react to children and kept her away from them. She liked people away from home but was opposed to strange men, not women, at the house, and would have to be introduced to a man away from home before she would allow him any peace in our house. Or just reptitive visits like from our farrier. A man who showed fear of her would have no peace, and although she never made a move towards anyone ever, she would make a person uncomfortable. I may have overreacted on keeping her under control around paople, she may have been just fine, but my gut said it was more important to err on the side of caution than to think everything would be ok and maybe it wouldn't.

 That's my story. I learn well form reading, watching videos, etc. i figure it can do nothing but help to read, watch, and learn and spend some time working with our dogs. I thank everyone for all your inputs. Julie

And I hope I didn't sound heavy-handed. And we all would really like to help.

Some see clicker training as a philosophy or political standpoint. I don't. The clicker is a marker. I live in the south and have a bit of a drawl. I've heard myself stretch the word "boy" into two syllables. I also know that the voice changes easily. You could say "good boy" 4 times and it will sound for different ways to the dog. But a distinctive sound, such as a click, never changes. And dogs are sensitive to varieties in sound. Pitch, inflection, sinus condition, whatever. It's the same reason that your dog can tell the sound of your car apart from all the others. And it's for marking the desired behavior and then you can reward it.

As for your dogs being as they are, it might just be something to live with, though I might ask if you can remember what, if anything, was special or different at the times they went after each other. You Rottie might actually be afraid and when others get afraid, he keys off of that, too. That is, he doesn't handle fear or the unknown very well. My dog doesn't bite strangers but he can scare the crap out of them with his bark. It's very deep and loud. He has a sub-gutteral, sometimes a growl that will make your guts rumble. On top of that, he often resembles a timberwolf. People that know him just ignore his uncertainty and he's okay. There hasn't been much of a chance to work on it. We live in a small town and most of our friends don't have the time to visit very often, so we're not having guests over all the time to get him acclimated to strangers. But I walk him in public as often as I can.

So, you might just try getting the dogs acclimated to being calm with each other or listing the environmental factors of what keeps them calm and try to keep it that way. Stability. Also, an arthritic dog can lash out from the pain. You might look into anti-inflammatories and pain meds. Calliecritturs is the main source here for that.

 

No you didn't sound heavy'handed. I prefer straight up and honest rather than beating around the bush to say something, but on the same hand, I try to be the same way.

I understand the clicker training a little better after reading your post, and I hope to have some time this weekend to do more reading about it online. They actually expect me to work sometimes at work, although obviously I have found the time to come here. I am starting a new business and opening next week, but my day of going out and promoting it tomorrow has been cancelled due to possible lack of gas available to get to work next week if I run it out this weekend. Good for dog training, bad for business.

Kota, the Rottie, was definitely affected by pain, but she is gone now. The other two have good health and joints so far. the vet's opinion was that it was the arthritis that changed her temperment towards the other dogs, I don't know if that is right or not. He said she may "blame" the other dogs as the source of the pain when they played and something hurt her. The way she reacted to Bear's cry when she was scared of something, I assumed was the prey drive, but again that could be off. She never showed fear of anything except the automatic door at Petsmart, go figure. On the other hand, the pointer I would say is a fear biter or snapper I guess. She will run out barking at something, but if it turns toward her she is running away barking over her shoulder. A complete different attitude. her name is Scarlett by the way.

Bear doesn't really make huge overtures to strangers for attention, but she will allow it. Scarlett will just keep backing away and barking if approached by someone. I am actually more concerned about having better control so that I can introduce another dog without a problem later on than I am about wanting to change how we handle the day to day with them. i will always keep Scarlett away form strangers for safety sake, and we will hopefully never get out of the habit of being watchful of any dog's body language when we are engaging more than one of them at a time. I would like more obedience because I want them better under control.

Kota loved to ride when she was painfree enough to allow it and actually knew the difference between going to the store or the park. I want another dog to be able to go with me. Our 2 are pukers, bear will struggle to not have to get in the car when she goes to the vet. I love having her at my heels when I am outside, but I miss having someone to take away to the park and such. ANyway, I am wandering.

To address at last what I think sets our dogs off now. Jealousy when one gets attention and the other one wants it. When I pet Bear, Scarlett will try to jog past and cut in between and nicely push her out of the way, even though she isn't stopping for the petting herself. When they are alone, I am going to guess it is because Bear likes to live with a treat instead of eat it, and I think Scarlett decides to try to take it every now and then. that's about all I have for now. Julie

 

brookcove

PS:  I'm sorry, but your posts are very unpleasant to read and I'm afraid you may be purposely making them that way (ie, gratuitously contentious).  Therefore, I'm going to figure out how to use the "don't show" feature on this forum for you.   

 

Becca, there is no such feature.  I know, I know... something as basic as "ignore" or "block" and we don't have it!  That and a decent search feature.  Sigh.  I feel your pain.

Just because someone on this forum has a different way of thinking and deveoped their dog care philosophy based on real first hand experience, does not give others the license to personally attack and encourage others to do so.  IMO, PS should have been a PM and I surprised the Admin/Mod allows this.  It looks like I was right on the mark in this thread by asking the OP more questions about the dog and the home situation.  I am sure with the new information provided, the advise would have been different.  But as you can see, there is silence. 

I like reading the post of others even those I disagree with and have no problem giving a direct opposing opinion.  What disappoints me the most is the member who I have enjoyed reading in the past but found their latest postiing as confrontational, twisting others writing, and then publicly proclaiming and encouraging others to ignore.  Been there, done that....Remember Cabal 3?  So there is pain all around but I have the self control and patience to simply to use the scroll wheel.  Good posting to you all.

corvus

I'm finding myself being ever more controversial lately.

I think there is a grain of truth to the older dog being somewhat set in their ways, although not in the stubborn willful meaning.

 

corvus, I agree with you here... By "set in their ways", it doesn't necessarily mean "stubborn".  It can just mean "old habits die hard", which is a saying that applies to most individuals IMO, both dogs AND people, whether we think of ourselves as "stubborn" or not.  

An important advantage puppies have over adults which brookcove missed out, is that they are a clean slate.  The reason why some - nay, many, - older dogs struggle a little with learning new things.... is that frequently they have to UNLEARN an already-learned behaviour.  This is what can take the time. 

It has little or nothing to do with the personality of the dog, as DPU seemed to understand it.... and much more to do with how deeply the behaviour is ingrained.  This is affected by how long the behaviour has been allowed to continue AND how rewarding it was for the dog. 

Often it is the self-reinforced behaviours (counter surfing, car chasing, chewing) which become ingrained most quickly, because "ignoring" them does little good (they are SELF reinforcing), and owners are at a loss to discover a) a punishment which is enough of a deterrent to counter the inherent reward or b) an external reward which outweighs the one they get from the behaviour. 

With puppies, if you provide ample supervision and don't allow bad habits to even start while at the same time giving him a generous repertoire of behaviours that ARE acceptable (example: get him outside as often as possible especially when he is likely to need to pee, and reward generously for any poo or pee outside) then you end up with a dog who is pretty well trained, clicker or no clicker.

I think it is important to emphasise that the clicker is just important as a marker, which means you can get EXCELLENT precision... even if the dog only displays the "good" behaviour for a wee second, you can mark it and let the dog know THAT is the desired behaviour. For a lot of dogs, this is a godsend, because often they only want to be told, unequivicolly (sp?) WHAT it is we want them to do.... many dogs labelled "problem dogs" simply LONG to know just what is required of them.  The clicker provides a way to do this.

Those "lightbulb moments" when the dog suddenly UNDERSTANDS what it is you want are heart warming.  It often throws into sharp relief just how MUCH we are expecting of them and how hard they really do try to understand and communicate with us.

However, IMO it's not needed for most behaviours and particularly not for house training.   It is a PRECISION tool.  When do you click?  When the dog starts peeing?  (which may cause him to stop and not empty his bladder)  When he stops?  (which may cause him to think he is being rewarded for stopping, again causing him to not empty his bladder).  Or when he has finished completely and started doing something else (in which case he may think he is being rewarded for the "something else" whatever that may be).

A slight disadvantage of the clicker with older dogs is that many of them have never learnt that way before.  Some may have been corrected for "wrong" behaviours, making them hesitant to offer any.  Others are so accustomed to simply being expected to WAIT until told what to do.  These dogs CAN learn with the clicker, but need more time and patience in the initial stages.  In fact these dogs can benefit HUGELY from the liberation of a clicker.  When I tried a clicker with MY old dog (about 12) I could have cried when I saw the creativity that he had in him, that I had unwittingly buried so deep.  It is certainly worth an honest, open minded try, whatever age of dog you may be working with.

Another slight disadvantage is that, as with pretty much all training methods, TIMING is important.  Click at the wrong moment you reward the wrong thing.  That said, I have found that using a clicker has actually improved my timing overall, so that when I want to teach something, or just when I interact with my dogs on a daily basis, I have got much better at rewarding (even "attention" is a reward) at the right moments and disengaging at the appropriate moments.  This has resulted in a myriad of small, but satisfying improvements in their behaviour overall.

The clicker is by no means the only popular tool discussed here.  It is recognised by most folks as a tool with the potential to be very powerful.  However MANY people choose not to use one for a number of reasons.... but plenty of those folks still understand the basic underpinning principals of marker training and apply them with success.  For example, back chaining a behaviour.... or breaking a behaviour down into smaller and smaller chunks to make it easier for the dog to succeed.  Since using a clicker I have started to use these other techniques, often associated with clicker training, but they can still be used WITHOUT the clicker, provided the basic principals are still applied.... ie, WHEN and HOW to reward and how to raise the criteria gradually for the dog to ensure success.

Just an aside to DPU - the advice is NOT different in the sense that anyone can use marker or clicker training to modify a dog's behavior.  All that needs to happen is for the dog's handler to realize how to use the tool, and what behavior to modify.  As Karen Pryor reminds us, it's just behavior.  We humans are the ones who complicate things.  

Now, to our OP, my answers in boldface:

Thank you Ron for clarifying the abbreviations. :-) It can make it a little confusing.

I am not apposed to learning about the clicker training. I was just surprised that it was the only one that was mentioned.

I know that it isn't popular for dogs to not live in the house. Our Rottweiler had that place until a couple of weeks ago. Both dogs that are in the basement have spent some time in the house. The pointer prefers the outside although she will tolerate being inside fopr periods of time. She will also sneak off to peepee in a hidden place. So it has just always been easier to let her stay out. And since we are both outside people all year round, they are not left outside alone for 23 1/2 hours a day.

It's good that your dogs receive a lot of human attention.  I don't know who trained your Pointer, but dogs that sneak off to pee are usually ones that have been scolded for accidents during the house training process, or who are spay incontinent and are depositing wet spots where they nap.  You could always go back to square one on the house training (you can PM me for my method) and try to address any incontinence issues with medication.

The other mixed breed Bear used to live inside with the Rottie, but she came to us as an adolescent afraid of everything that moved and we have tried to overcome that and have to a certain extent, but she would cower and cry out if you even moved too fast or a plastic bag rattled, and would pee on the floor just a little bit. And the crying out started to trigger the attack mode in the Rottie, so it was easier, and yes if I had brought in the pros we might have overcome all of it, but i didn't, she went outside to live with the other dog. And although she doesn't get to sleep inside with us, she has bloomed into a different dog out from under the fear of the Rottie. She is still afraid of things that for the 8 years she has been with us has never hurt her, but she is so much better. She has a fantastic recall and will come and sit right in front of you, EXCEPT when something has really scared her, then she will hightail it for her kennel.

It was kind of you to take in a dog that obviously did not receive adequate socialization during the critical period (8-12 weeks of age), and you were also kind to remove her from the threat of bodily harm from a dog with high prey drive.  Your realization that professional advice might have been helpful is good, since you obviously want to learn, and are open to doing better for your dogs all the time, but in all honesty, you can never go back and recapture puppy hood no matter how hard you try, although some of the fear issues can be made better (not perfect, as you have seen).  Lurkers should take note of the puppy developmental stages, and be sure they are training appropriately at each stage, beginning VERY early.

We have kept the Rottie separate from the pointer for years, and although it has been a chore sometimes, it was worth it for their safety.

 I wish I could convince more people of the wisdom of that statement.  Always better safe than sorry...

Now the rottie is gone, and I want to spend as much time as I can making the two we have still into "better" members of the family. I may or may not get another dog, if i do it will live inside, but I want it to be able to associate with the others without there being a melee every time. I have no intention of just throwing another dog into the mix. i don't want to add trouble to a fairly peaceful situation. I also don't want to make it sound like these dogs are hanging on each other's throats. they might jump on each other a few times in a year. Once is too much for me if i am there. I can tell by their body language that if we weren't diligent, it would be more often, and I just feel like that needs to addressed, whether we can watch for it and counteract it or not.

In this situation, I would advise you to get a puppy if you can, since most older dogs tolerate pups way better than adults.  I would get a pup with a more subordinate disposition than your more problematic dog, and I would get opposite gender from that dog, too.  Then, begin at age 8 weeks with socialization and training at a good positive training center (PM your location and I'll help you find one).  You will learn enough that way, hopefully, to make your future dog owning experiences even better, without the problems you encountered thus far.  Alas, that's how all of us learn, though, and your experiences will soon be filtered through your improving knowledge.  I would say, despite any cyberwrangling that goes on here, that this is a good board, and I hope you hang around.  You may not always agree with us, and we all do batter one another around occasionally, but overall, it's a good "family", and even the snottiest among us has often bent over backward to help another member, or to save a dog.

The pointer we keep away from people entirely. I don't like that, but I will not take the chance with her. She has always been like that, and I take the blame for allowing it for the years that i have been around her.

There is no shame in admitting the truth, or in managing a dog to keep her from making what could be a fatal mistake!

 How far I can get with our dogs, I don't know. I want to try. The training I did with our Rottie was seat of my pants, I had never trained a dog. We went to obedience classes, she loved everyone, and other dogs, then when she was a few years old she got arthritis, and she changed. She got grouchy, started to not tolerate other dogs, and when she started that, I became worried about how she would react to children and kept her away from them. She liked people away from home but was opposed to strange men, not women, at the house, and would have to be introduced to a man away from home before she would allow him any peace in our house. Or just reptitive visits like from our farrier. A man who showed fear of her would have no peace, and although she never made a move towards anyone ever, she would make a person uncomfortable. I may have overreacted on keeping her under control around paople, she may have been just fine, but my gut said it was more important to err on the side of caution than to think everything would be ok and maybe it wouldn't.

Also, a good decision based on your inexperience.  Rotts are tough for first time or "seat of the pants" owners, since many of them develop a healthy guarding instinct at the age of social maturity, which can certainly be complicated by health issues.  You are to be commended for erring on the side of caution.  You can get pretty far with your dogs, or dogs in general, by relying on good scientific knowledge, and not hype, tradition, or expediency;-)  

 That's my story. I learn well form reading, watching videos, etc. i figure it can do nothing but help to read, watch, and learn and spend some time working with our dogs. I thank everyone for all your inputs.

Julie, if you like videos, I have one word for you - Tawzer. 

"Really Reliable Recall"  DVD  Leslie Nelson

"Multiple Dogs" DVD  Trish King

 And, some book recommendations:

"The Culture Clash"  Jean Donaldson

"For the Love of a Dog"  and "Feeling Outnumbered?" Patricia McConnell

"Click to Calm"  Emma Parsons

"Clicker Training for Obedience"  Morgan Spector