Information on dogs killing other family dogs - please

boredpuppy08

looking out the window crying every time the other dogs are out

Block his access to that window. 

boredpuppy08

unfortunately there's been hostility ever since Kong came to our house as a puppy, it took us a really long time to intro them because every time Kong saw Rupert he would bark and

It takes a while to get all the info, it seems.So the min pin Kong came to the house after Rupert and Kong came in with alll the attitude. That Rupert has been been tolerating forever, amen. So, Rupert gets spooked, Kong starts his traditional bullying and Rupert, in confusion, strikes on him, whether it's intentional or Kong just got in the way of a 70 or 80 lb dog. And Rupert is supposed to pay for it with his life? And your vet wanted to PTS Rupert at 3 months? That doesn't make sense.

Let me guess, Rupert gets along famously with all the other dogs and Kong is the only black mark on his record.

I don't know how to say this diplomatically. Your parents are the ones responsible for bringing a disruptor named Kong into the house. Yet, they are willing to disenfranchise you. And Rupert. He's missing his old buddies. Kong was the problem and Rupert, true to being a dog, took care of the problem, intentional or not. If you go to a behaviorist, they will do the same things we do which is question and question, trying to get all pertinent info. You're parents need to care for you more than the care for the dog (my opinion). Rupert never had a problem with the other dogs, right? Just Kong.

It sounds like an unfair scenario. I don't think he needs muzzling or pts. I think he's being misdiagnosed.

All I can say is - poor Ruppert.  Having a gaggle of little yappy dogs at his feet all the time must be most anoying especially if he isn't feeling good with tooth absesses and arthritius.

Good luck with this situation I have no suggestions except for do not PTS - it really seems like just an unfortuniate accident.  Keep working, training and managing the situation.  Maybe someday you can move out and give Ruppert a nice quiet home where you can really work with him.

Best of Luck!

Don't leave idog after this situation stay around and maybe some people here can help you work through the changes.

ron2

boredpuppy08

unfortunately there's been hostility ever since Kong came to our house as a puppy, it took us a really long time to intro them because every time Kong saw Rupert he would bark and

It takes a while to get all the info, it seems.So the min pin Kong came to the house after Rupert and Kong came in with alll the attitude. That Rupert has been been tolerating forever, amen. So, Rupert gets spooked, Kong starts his traditional bullying and Rupert, in confusion, strikes on him, whether it's intentional or Kong just got in the way of a 70 or 80 lb dog. And Rupert is supposed to pay for it with his life? And your vet wanted to PTS Rupert at 3 months? That doesn't make sense.

Let me guess, Rupert gets along famously with all the other dogs and Kong is the only black mark on his record.

I don't know how to say this diplomatically. Your parents are the ones responsible for bringing a disruptor named Kong into the house. Yet, they are willing to disenfranchise you. And Rupert. He's missing his old buddies. Kong was the problem and Rupert, true to being a dog, took care of the problem, intentional or not. If you go to a behaviorist, they will do the same things we do which is question and question, trying to get all pertinent info. You're parents need to care for you more than the care for the dog (my opinion). Rupert never had a problem with the other dogs, right? Just Kong.

It sounds like an unfair scenario. I don't think he needs muzzling or pts. I think he's being misdiagnosed.

I want my choice to be very careful, non emotional, and rational but the facts as I've come to see them are this - Rupert has been blamed constantly for all the hostility between him and Kong, and Him and Doodle but those are the only two dogs he's ever had problems with and those are the most spoiled dogs on the planet one by my mother one by my father. Rupert hasn't been feeling well, Rupert was scared, and Rupert has been picked on by the humans in the household for these squabbles even tho he's the more controlled dog as well as older and should have been considered FIRST before we brought these dogs into the house at all and I definitely don't remember such a discussion happening, and I went along with that because my parents wholeheartedly believe it and always yell at him even tho it hasn't decreased the behavior at all. My main mistake may have been falling into that train of thought and not protecting my own dog, making what he did not his fault, but mine and my parents. That could be wrong, but my gut is and has been telling me something along those lines. It could be wishful thinking, I'm searching and may have found a behaviorist who I'm going to call for a consult(on my own, but I'll involve my parents as well) so I can really get to the bottom of this - thank you everyone for answering my posts it's been valuable information and insite into different ways of looking at the situation, and even if I do have to move out and live with only Rupert I think that could be a workable solution because he poses no danger to me and with strict and careful handling won't pose a threat to anyone else either - in the future if push comes to shove, there's no way he's going to be euthanised.

I know the wanting to put him to sleep thing doesn't make much sense, but I honestly am not creative enough to make up how *that* conversation came up. That vet is older than dirt was probably 75 or 80 8 years ago, works way out in the country and generally only works on cattle, horses, pigs, sheep ect, we were in with Rupert and his sister for worming and to get flea medicine that summer was horrible for fleas... so Toy is up on the table and the doctor grabs her muzzle and doses her and she growled at him and warned with her teeth as he was pulling his hands away - not bite, didn't even touch or really snap just opened her mouth, it's hard to explain but she was definitely saying "hey I'm scared and that sucks leave me alone."  so the vet grabs her by the scruff of her neck and shakes(she's just a 3 month old pup) and pushes her to one side a bit and she screamed and bit him, severely. He was bleeding all over, so he cleans his hand off in the sink and his only comment was, "Look at that, you want *that* in your house with your daughter?" to my mom, though I was standing there. My mom then grabs her off the table and said something like, "what do you expect?" because his behavior was outrageous and she was clearly shocked, My mom hands me Toy's leash and she's shaking like a leaf and takes Ruperts puts him on the table and the vet once again doses Rupert coldly tho not really roughly and the... vet does the same to Rupert and Rupert lunged nearly off the table and grabbed the vet's arm and the vet hit him in the head, we got out of there quick, but as we were paying the vet came over and said, "those dogs aren't safe, they shouldn't be allowed to live they'll hurt someone and it'll probably be your child." and my mom said something I don't remember what and the vet recommended Rupert be neutered to decrease aggression so that's why Rupert was neutered at 5 months old. The dog has issues of that I have no doubt,  so far I don't think anyone has really truely hit the core of what's going on other than I know him to be submissive and responsive and fearful and sensitive and even after what happened that opinion hasn't changed.

Let me just say that I'm not against neutering at all. And I checked out NILIF and I agree, have already been practicing it with Rupert for quite some time and need to insist on it with all the other dogs. I'm printing several pages of information as I write this and I'm going to make sure my parents read and talk about it, at least.

Our very old Lab killed a tiny toy poodle that had wandered into our yard.  She had been staying with us for about a week as we tried to find her owners.  The RRs had accepted her but the Lab simply bided her time until she could attack.  She was 13 going on 14 and snapped him up shaking him very hard , it broke his neck and back , death was very quick.

Has she been younger she would have been Euthanized.  Instead we kept a high alert on her from that day forward.  No more socializing the RR pups when we'd have a rare litter and never around toy breeds again.  She lived another year and a half. Sweet and loving and deeply missed when she crossed the bridge. 

A dog fight with Rhodesians is a fierce and frightening thing.  It can not be allowed or even slightly condoned.   The lab was so old she could not even break skin with her worn down teeth , but the dog was still dead.  Even though he was not and never would have been a member of our extended pack  I wept for him for days.  15 seconds was enough to make me worry about the lab until her last moments.

Bonita of Bwana

your vet really sounds like an idiot! to handle your own dog that way is one thing but to do that to someone else's dog, especially a clients speaks iof great incompetence for me. seriously... i'd look for a different vet. a vet is someone you need to be able to trust for so many reasons...

anyways, this isnt your first priority right now, of course!

just want to say that i'm glad that rupert has someone like you to look out for him! i hope you get the situation under controll as soon as possible! {HUGS}

Maybe I missed it among the posts, but I don't believe anybody has mentioned another HUGE issue facing Rupert. He has physical challenges that need to be addressed. Are you able to do that with for him?

There are people here who can help you help him feel better. Once he feels better, you might find his tolerance level (patience) is a LOT higher. Dogs in pain can be quick to snap.

nfowler

Maybe I missed it among the posts, but I don't believe anybody has mentioned another HUGE issue facing Rupert. He has physical challenges that need to be addressed. Are you able to do that with for him?

There are people here who can help you help him feel better. Once he feels better, you might find his tolerance level (patience) is a LOT higher. Dogs in pain can be quick to snap.

I'm glad this was mentioned.  There are definitely things you can do about arthritis.  In this situation I'd probably talk to the vet about pain meds and get him a glucosimine/chondroitin (sp?) supplement (the right one can work very well--my dog is living proof).  In addition, I'd see what can be done about the tooth abscess.  I know how unpleasant I am when I'm in lots of pain and I don't even have sharp teeth....... 

Good luck! 

Thanks!

Rupert went to the vet today, lost four teeth had the rest cleaned, apparently his teeth are great it's that he has some serious recesion of gums so the doctor prescribed daily mouth rinses until he heals and then daily rinse/brushing and he's got to go back in 6 months for another cleaning. Rupert also had a small tumor cut off his head and the vet cauterised it rather than stitching because it was so small, and cauterised a small scratch/cut I think he accidently made when he was shaving the area. It was a pretty stressful visit for me because I've been super worried about Rupert having diabetes or kidney failure or heart problems and right off the bat the vet appeared with a huge syringe of sedative before he'd even layed hands on the dog and Rupert had only been sedated two times before both in the first year of life so there were a couple tense moments(during which *I* thought I was going to get the shot of demoral and ketaset) but it turned out for the best and Rupert came around and immediately started growling at the vet when we were done. He's pretty woozy still he's got some serious pain meds on board and more for 10 days as well as antibiotics... the combo will not only take care of his dental pain but his arthritis, which the vet admitted was pretty serious in his front legs especially.

I'm not sure if there's anything surgical that can be done about his arthritic legs at this point, it's affecting basically every joint in his body and the vet gave stern instructions to get another 10lbs off him, bringing him down to 40lbs which is the weight he was at as a 3 month old pup so that's a goal in the next few months, I already called the dog food companies my mom buys from to get calorie content that wasn't listed on the bags and cans. My poor dog looks like a monster his fur is stained with blood and stuff from the cautery tool and he's got patches of hair missing from the various things including blood draw - Oh, the vet drew blood and just got the phone call for results, kidneys are fine but there are "some things" my mom didn't specify that are elevated but are apparently still within "normal" range as to be expected for an 7 year 4 month old dog. The vet estimates that Rupert only has another 2 to 4 years of life left, which is really sad to hear. Oh, and he's also got a fungal infection on his legs and probably his whole body but the vet wants to wait and see if that gets cleared up by antibiotics(even tho he's already been on them 3 weeks!), so if I don't start to see improvement as soon as he finishes his 10 days of meds we're going back for anti-fungals and some more tests.

He ate a good dinner of soft food with chicken broth and for the first time in his life my furry dog is willfully and happily curled up underneath a blanket! I wish I could get a picture but it's too dark in the room. Today, Rupert was throughly vetted and I'm going to sleep happy tonight.

 This is a great beginning!  Anything you can do to relieve pain lessens anxiety and aggressiveness in many dogs.  Don't discount the possibility of having the vet run a complete thyroid panel later on to see if Rupert has any issue there, since that can be one cause for aggression.  I would reduce the level of protein in his food.  Obviously you want to remain at a safe level, but there is some evidence that a lower protein diet also reduces aggression in some dogs.

What reason did the Vet give for only having 2 to 4 years left?  I may have missed this but is he on some kind of joint supplement?  Cosequin sure helped our Labs.

Hope it all works out for you and Rupert.  He did what many dogs would have done under the circumstances.

JackieG

What reason did the Vet give for only having 2 to 4 years left? 

I think his reasoning is based on Rupert as a whole, Rupert is a rescue dog, collie who knows what mix and unfortunately he's got some structural defects and none of the hybrid vigor of some mixed dogs - mildly dysplastic in the hips, a roach over his loins, sway backed, "out" at the elbows with a rediculusly wide chest that mean he was arthritic by the time he was two. Poor guy had a lot stacked against him from teh beginning, plus his mom had a very poor temperment and health which I have no doubt plays a part in his aggression today. I didn't know what "Dam Aggression" was until I met Sadie.

Arthritic dogs can have a shortened life span. Arthritis sure takes its toll on our furbabies.

That said, I think that you and Rupert could see some definite positive changes if you post to the Health section of this board and browse a bit, looking to see what other folks have done with and for their arthritic dogs.

PM me if you'd like--I have some things that I'm doing for my arthritic dog, too, but I know that you'll find out quite a bit on the Health section here, too.

Hi -- if you will email me I can send you information that will help arthritis a great deal.  You may find the dental helps a great deal.  But there is a TON you can do for this dog to ease his pain.

There are many things -- from topicals to massage on, herbals and supplements to ease the joints and actually *restore* some of the cartilage.  Not just pain medicine (altho there are a lot of things that can help that as well).

I've had arthritis since I was a kid (yep, rheumatoid) and I've had arthritic dogs for many years.  Depending on your finances and where you live there are MANY options -- acupuncture is awesome for dogs and available from many holistic vets (try http://www.tcvm.com -- there is a good locator on the left side of the front page) and even many universities are teaching it now.

Whatever you can afford I can help you figure it out -- there ARE things you can do -- some of them incredibly easy.

I don't know if this is OT, for this thread, if I should start another one or not but there's one more thing before this can really be put to rest. Now that I'm not so worried about what's going on with Rupert, I've been thinking a lot about what I can do for my mom to help her feel better. The day after what happened she showed me a little memorial stone in a pet magazine and didn't really say anything... Kong was buried back by our garden in a really nice secluded beautiful spot, next to the two other pets we're lost in the last three months - Bunny our cat, to kidney failure she was 18 and Molly min pin age 4, who died suddenly and unexpectedly... I just started a new job and tho it's going to take a while I know for sure I'm going to give my mom 750$ in the spring probably, 450 because that's what she paid for Kong and the rest because that's what she spent this year in vet bills... if she wants it will cover the adoption fee and vetting for a rescue min pin; but I was also thinking I would have a memorial made. Up the street there is a business that makes tombstones - like for human cemetarys and it's pretty common in town to see people with granite and limestone pillars in their yard with the family name engraved so I called today and found out how much a 12/24" polished red granite memorial would be, it's affordable - but I don't really know what to have ingraved. I was thinking "pets are forever <3" or "lost but not forgotten, forever in our hearts - Kong, Bunny, Molly" but I'm not sure, does anyone have any suggestions? My mom hasn't been to that spot since we buried Kong and I think it would be really special and help her...