Information on dogs killing other family dogs - please

boredpuppy08

What would you do if one of your dogs killed another of your dogs?

It would completely depend on which dog was the offender.  If Chyna or Bevo were to kill one of the other dogs in an unprovoked attack, they would be euthanized.  Rehoming them would not be an option due to Chyna's age, & Bevo's temperament.  I would consider attempting to rehome Brinxx, Shooter, or Schatzi into an only dog home, although I would only consider this if I was fully confident that the person that they would be going to knew what they would be dealing with. 

I'm grateful that we don't have issues in our pack.  I know that I would have a very hard time making either of those choices, but I do feel that it would be my responsibility to keep my other dogs safe.

BEVOLASVEGAS - do you think it would be humane, or an option, or even a good idea to keep the attacking dog and attempt, with help to retrain it? Would it be cruel for say an 8 year old dog to have to wear a basket muzzle the rest of it's life when interacting with it's other pack members assuming that the dog isn't overtly agressive and has been put through extensive training?

You do know that a muzzle *can* make a dog MORE aggressive?  This isn't a cut/dried yes or no question.  There are other ways a dog can be aggressive aside from biting -- it completely depends on the size of the dog, the situation, way way way too many variables to just say I'd do ____.

calliecritturs

You do know that a muzzle *can* make a dog MORE aggressive?  This isn't a cut/dried yes or no question.  There are other ways a dog can be aggressive aside from biting -- it completely depends on the size of the dog, the situation, way way way too many variables to just say I'd do ____.

I know that muzzles can make a dog more agressive, same thing with being on leash, or in the house or going through a door or a bunch of other things.

Here's what's going on, I know that I'm a horrible person, and a worse dog owner - my dog killed my mother's dog tonight. He's an 8 year old 60lb dog, my mom's dog was 8lbs and a min pin. My dog caught his tail on a board laying on top of a toolbox that was out and it fell on him and he spooked, he's been dealing with a tooth abcess plus arthritis, and he's already known to be fear agressive with everyone except for me and we've worked hard to manage his agression. The little dog jumped at him agressively as he spooked and tried to get away from what fell and Rupert attacked Kong and broke his neck it was very quick and tho I did CPR and we rushed him to the vet he didn't make it.

I love my dog, he's my first dog and my furry lifepartner but I'm struggling with the decision of euthanising him tommorow, or doing what my parents insist is my only other option which is getting him a wire basket muzzle and not allowing him around any other dog ever again without it. The other dogs my parents have are little dogs and I agree, he could do a lot of damage with just his feet even with a muzzle on.

I think it's possible that I could keep him in my room the majority of the time so he could be muzzle free, take him outside on his own on lead, and otherwise keep him separate from the other dogs but what I'm wondering is - is it humane, is it even the right choice? I love my dog and I don't think "a life for a life" is justice when this is my fault for not acting to control the situation closely enough. If I choose not to euthanise him which the vet has recommended since he was about 3 months old I realise it's going to be a selfish choice - I love him and I don't want him to die.

first of all, let me say i'm very sorry this happened! this is a really tough situation to be in!

i am not sure how the living arrangements are right now? you're living with your parents? do they have another dog? are they planning to get another dog? how do they feel towards your dog after all this? i think all these things would play a factor.

i for one am pretty sure i would just put a LOT of efford into training, and managing his environment. maybe even hire a behaviourist (not a regular trainer) to help you with the problem. i know i couldnt bring myself to euth my dog for a behavioural thing. i'm glad i own small dogs (one of them with behavioural issues including fear agression), since it gives me a chance to work on his issues, while easily controlling him in case the need arises...

janetmichel3009

first of all, let me say i'm very sorry this happened! this is a really tough situation to be in!

i am not sure how the living arrangements are right now? you're living with your parents? do they have another dog? are they planning to get another dog? how do they feel towards your dog after all this? i think all these things would play a factor.

i for one am pretty sure i would just put a LOT of efford into training, and managing his environment. maybe even hire a behaviourist (not a regular trainer) to help you with the problem. i know i couldnt bring myself to euth my dog for a behavioural thing. i'm glad i own small dogs (one of them with behavioural issues including fear agression), since it gives me a chance to work on his issues, while easily controlling him in case the need arises...

I'm 19 living with my parents, they've got (now) three miniature pinschers as well as Rupert's sister Toy but the group of dogs has always been "communal" as far as vet, dinner time, and general care who ever has the time and sees something needs done does it, and then on top of that each person trains their own dogs - Rupert is my only dog that I actually train and he's very intelligent and quick to pick things up. So all the dogs generally hang out in the house together(huge mistake), barred from the bedrooms during the day and two dogs sleep with my parents at night(Kong and Rupert's sister, another mistake, favoritism I know), Rupert sleeps in my room and the other three sleep in the living room on the sofa, we go outside as a group 5-6 times a day with supervision because the MinPins dig. What my parents are saying, is that they are no longer going to care for Rupert in any way - not vet care, feeding, outside, affection, anything. My father in particular has only said one thing all evening and that's, "we should have listened to the vet, we should have him put to sleep."

 They don't want to see him and understandably my mother is extremely upset because Kong the dog that was killed was her baby and they were very very close. My mom said that she's going to leave the final decision up to me whether I choose to keep him or what but I don't really feel like she means that and I'm expected to have him euthanised. I could understand her stance if he was a bloodthirsty monster but that's just not Rupert, he's extremely well mannered on lead and in general and I know that physically managing him isn't going to be an issue... does anyone know of a good behaviorist in Kansas City, MO?

We're definitely not getting any more dogs, at least not for 5-10 years.

i have a feeling you really dont want to euth rupert.

i do understand your parents' feelings. understandibly they are upset and emotional! again, i cannot tell you what to do, but if it were me and i'd tell my parents that i needed some time to think it over. in the meantime i would make sure to keep rupert out of their way. put him in my room and just make sure he gets pletnty of outside time, excersise and interaction.

i dont know if this is even a possiblity... but maybe with time your parents can get over the pain and forgive rupert... close management and supervision should of course always apply from here on...

this really is a tough situation and all i can give you is some personal opinions.

try looking in the yellow pages, contact trainers, try pet stores in your area, etc. these are all ways to possibly find a behaviourist...

I sent you a P.M.

Tena

boredpuppy08

BEVOLASVEGAS - do you think it would be humane, or an option, or even a good idea to keep the attacking dog and attempt, with help to retrain it? Would it be cruel for say an 8 year old dog to have to wear a basket muzzle the rest of it's life when interacting with it's other pack members assuming that the dog isn't overtly agressive and has been put through extensive training?

I would be afraid that a muzzle would make the aggression worse.  With that being said, you could try to seperate the dogs completely ( a crate & rotate situation) and retrain the aggressive one.  For me, I would never trust the dogs together without very strict supervision no matter how rehabbing this dog goes.

I apologize if my first post came off as harsh.  I thought that this was a hypothetical situation not something that you were having to deal with.

 Whoa, everyone!!!! Some dogs have a mishap with a dog and never have another incident their whole lives.  Unfortunately, in the tiny breeds, a puncture that wouldn't even disturb past the fur on a larger dog can do serious damage to these dogs.  And, you don't even know which dog was the instigator, or what really happened, from the sound of it.  Few attacks are random or unprovoked.  Dog language is very subtle, and these dogs could have been pressing each other's buttons for months without a human noticing.  I would never consider euthanizing a dog without seeking help from a behaviorist first, so if you can do it, please do.  The Animal Behavior Society web page, or the IAABC web page both have listings.  In the interim, I would, to satisfy your parents' concerns, keep your dog separate from the others.  By the way, a basket muzzle, properly introduced, is not cruel, since the dog can still pant, eat, etc.  But, you must never leave the dog unsupervised with the muzzle on.  It just isn't safe.  For the lurkers, if such a dog is intact, please neuter immediately, as in a male dog this can lower dog to dog aggression.  In females, spaying has little effect, but it does remove the possibility of an estrus or pregnancy related fight - hormonal bitches can be very nasty for short periods of time during those events.

Keep in mind that your veterinarian is not a behavior specialist, and some old time vets still recommend euthanizing any dog that shows any aggression.  While I wouldn't rule it out if this dog is habitually aggressive, I would still rather see you consult a specialist before making such a serious decision.  And, I would want your parents to sit in on the visit, so that even though they are grief stricken, they may gain some insight as to the real severity of the problem, and not just compound a bad situation by a vengeful act that may not be necessary to preserve the safety of the other dogs.   

I would not sentence my dog to death for what happened with Rupert and Kong. The family situation makes things complex, of course.

Toy dogs are tiny, and fragile. I think sometimes people (and the toy dogs themselves) forget this. We can joke about big dogs in a little body, but at the end the day a little body is easily injured.

It sounds as though Rupert thought he was being attacked, and responded. Unfortunately it doesn't take much force from a 60 lb dog to seriously injure a tiny dog. Rupert may not have intended to kill the min pin.  He probably didn't.

Good luck. I hope your parents calm down and are able to gain some perspective. If not, I would try and rehome Rupert before putting him down. 

My dog caught his tail on a board laying on top of a toolbox that was out and it fell on him and he spooked, he's been dealing with a tooth abcess plus arthritis, and he's already known to be fear agressive with everyone except for me and we've worked hard to manage his agression. The little dog jumped at him agressively as he spooked and tried to get away from what fell and Rupert attacked Kong and broke his neck it was very quick and tho I did CPR and we rushed him to the vet he didn't make it.

this sounds like a freak accident that will be so unlikely to happen again. I can't see euthanasia under such circumstances, or even muzzling. How does the dog normally get along with the other dogs? what are you doing about the fear aggression? is it possible for you to find a new residence for you and your dog?

 I have to agree with the other posters in saying that I would not PTS in this situation. Your dog had some pain issues and none of us know the exact circumstances involved in what triggered his response and as Spirit mentioned the small size of the dog killed could easily mean that your dog was not attempting to kill the other and only reacted and that reaction resulted in the death of the smaller dog.

 I would sit down with your parents and ask them to give you time and them time to get past the emotions. Emotions sometimes cloud good judgement.

 Keep your dog out of their way as much as possible during this cooling off period. Think it through carefully.

 I will end by saying that in my opinion there is not right or wrong choice here, I have stated what I would do, but you must make your own choice. There are issues of family peace, a roof over your head and appeasing your parents to consider. I do hope that they do not force you into a choice that you will regret. You and your family will be in my prayers.

mudpuppy

My dog caught his tail on a board laying on top of a toolbox that was out and it fell on him and he spooked, he's been dealing with a tooth abcess plus arthritis, and he's already known to be fear agressive with everyone except for me and we've worked hard to manage his agression. The little dog jumped at him agressively as he spooked and tried to get away from what fell and Rupert attacked Kong and broke his neck it was very quick and tho I did CPR and we rushed him to the vet he didn't make it.

this sounds like a freak accident that will be so unlikely to happen again. I can't see euthanasia under such circumstances, or even muzzling. How does the dog normally get along with the other dogs? what are you doing about the fear aggression? is it possible for you to find a new residence for you and your dog?

It was a freak incident, unfortunately there's been hostility ever since Kong came to our house as a puppy, it took us a really long time to intro them because every time Kong saw Rupert he would bark and nip, it may have been play but at that point Rupert was 2 years old and had only ever interacted in a good way with the neighbors collie/shepard and lab and his sister so a little dog was a lot to handle, we worked carefully for more than a year staring by keeping them separated by doors, or on lead across the yard with praise and treats and "no" for signs of hostility and eventually they ignored one another and actually played somewhat and Rupert was generally very very gentle until we thought they were finally safe together, at the time we got Kong the only dogs we had were Rupert and Toy. Then we got Doodle when Kong was 3, who is a poorly socialised puppy mill minpin and she right from the get go has been harrassing Rupert. she'll find him in the house seemingly without reason and stare with a very dominate posture, then she'll bark and bouce back and forth at him, Kong used to do the same thing when the dogs got excited about someone coming home - bark *at* Rupert rather than barking at the person coming in and Rupert would turn and growl but Doodle has absolutely escalated the situation she's spoiled rotten and has zero boundries so my parents are mainly worried that her behavior is going to cause her to get attacked as well. Rupert has shown that he's human agressive - at first as a pup I would take him on walks and he would just act shy, but then it turned to growling and lunging, he bit the vet, he bit my friend at about 5 months old, and my fathers friend, who's a dog lover wanted to meet him and was adamant he would make friends with Rupert about a year ago, Rupert was fine the guy was feeding him by tossing treats then the guy all of a sudden pulled out a pen light from his pocket and shined it in Rupert's eyes and Rupert bit him on the knee then ran and hid... he's very predictable, he's predictably agressive in situations that are new and uncomfortable for him and that's the main issue that would make it impossible to rehome him, and that I hope a behaviorist can help with.

I was very careful early in his life(4 months) to teach him heel, loose lead walking, and other commands so even when scared he listens and that's basically how we work on his agression. I really like doing "incompatible behaviors" stuff like chin touch on his paw when he's growling or down/rollover and suprisingly he is extremely responsive to the excersizes, I think over time those familiar actions have become a source of comfort for him and obviously he doesn't want to be in tense situations so I've tried to always make sure I can give him a way out, that's hard tho when there is another dog who's uncontrolled(Doodle) and hellbent on being hostile and tense.

After today I can see that the "crate and rotate" as one of the above posters put it is going to work fine. It will give my parents time to calm down. I don't want Rupert to be PTS at all, already today he's showing signs of anxiety about the change in his routine which is somewhat disturbing, it's mostly whining and anxiety and looking out the window crying every time the other dogs are out I need to go get some activity toys or something for him while he's in my room but it will have to wait a few days.